92: Apply the Eisenhower Matrix with Dave Romero

Dave Romero is the President of Unboxed Training and Technology, a company that creates learning experiences and technologies to help businesses embed continuous learning in the workplace. We talk about the Holy Grail of business longevity, how successful entrepreneurs eliminate complexity from their businesses, and why curiosity is the ultimate business superpower. 

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Apply the Eisenhower Matrix with Dave Romero

Our guest is Dave Romero, the president of Unbox Training and Technology, a company that helps you embed continuous learning in your workplace, allowing learners to nimbly react to business challenges, uncover opportunities, and rise to new heights of success. Welcome to the show, Dave.

Steve, thank you. Thanks for having me here.

So yes, I’m excited to have you and to discuss some of the topics here that you have on the agenda. And first and first most, what led you to launching Unboxed Training and Technology and what challenges you and your partner encountered along the way?

That’s a good question. Good place to start. So, you know, they say the mother of invention is necessity. So, my business partner and I were working with a Fortune 500 company that went out of business and we decided rather than just sit around and complain about it, we wanted to go do something about it. And so we got together and pulled together a few folks that we worked with before and we started Unboxed and that started our mission to educate and empower the modern learner and our goal was to change the world and how people train. And so we set out with that mission initially in 2009 I guess, so it’s 13 years now and our goal has not changed this entire time. And we knew we wanted to do something with technology and we wanted to do something related to creating better content and better learning experiences and that’s what we do.

So, what was it that you kind of lacked or what you were frustrated about that prompted this desire to improve on learning?

A lot of it came from being in the learner’s shoes. You know, going through the boring e-learnings, clicking next to continue, having to click 300 times to find a course in a learning management system, going to a boring class and just hearing some instructor drone on and on about something, you know, those types of things that a lot of us have to go through and we realized there had to be better ways to do it and at that point the iPad hadn’t been invented but it was coming out soon, we didn’t know that of course, and as it did we started seeing opportunities using technology and our platform to be able to deliver that content more effectively and more engaging. And a lot of what we try to do is inspire people to want to learn something new or learn something more and so as part of that we use a lot of animation and video and interactive content so that you aren’t just clicking next to continue and bored as you go through your training.

Okay, that sounds interesting. So we’ll talk more about that, on how you engage people and how you make it more interesting. But let’s first tackle our management blueprint. This is the thing with the podcast, so what’s the business framework that you have used in building Unbox that you feel like is a good one and you would share with the audience?

Well you know, when we first started out, it was literally those scenarios where we would take on any new opportunities that came along and we tried our best to execute on those things. And sometimes we killed it and other times we ended up killing ourselves over it and our team. And so, you know, we pretty, I would say quickly, but it really didn’t feel quickly learned, probably about five to seven years in, that we had to do a few key things differently. One of them was a diversification strategy. In the early days, and many startups were a bootstrap startup, not a funded startup.

And in the early days, a lot of our successes rested on the shoulders of a few very large clients. And we’re very grateful for those clients and those opportunities because they gave us the chance to really build out the company and create a company that we were really proud of and that we were able to bring people into. What we learned over time though was that by having that very large book of business within a few accounts, we started doing things that prevented us from being able to grow the company. And a lot of that came down to not understanding where to focus our time and energy, making decisions that are near-term versus long-term, and chasing after the next new shiny thing that we can say yes to and acquire some more money.

And, you know, to be honest, Steve, going through that period of time was easily one of the best and worst times of, you know, being at Unboxed and that we actually had many, many talented folks here and many folks that are still here actually, but many of them have left the company. And a lot of that came to just simply feeling like you’re in the grind all the time. And so the big lesson out of that was to change a bit of how we as leaders present options and take on different deals and different types of projects. And we learned a little bit more about the Eisenhower matrix and that’s been something that guides me in a lot of what I do now.

And for me the Eisenhower matrix is this concept of what is urgent and what’s not urgent and then what’s important and what’s not important. And if you look it up on Google and I can flash a little picture of it here on the screen. I’ll show you that for anyone who is watching. You’ll notice on this this, and by the way as you can tell by the name I didn’t make this up, this actually comes from Eisenhower, our president, former president, and the idea that on the left-hand quadrant here you see at the top important, at the bottom not important, and then on the right-hand side of this four box you see urgent on the left and you see not urgent on the right, and this is essentially the actions that you would take. So if it’s an important thing that you need to go do and it’s urgent, you go do it right now.

The Eisenhower matrix is this concept of what is urgent and what's not urgent and then what's important and what's not important. Share on X

And if it’s important but it’s not urgent, you decide and you schedule a time to do it and you plan, right? And this is a really tough distinction because when you’re a small business, and pretty much in every business, because we work with some of the largest companies in the world, everything seems important and urgent all the time. And so the reality is, we all know that it isn’t that. And so you especially start to see things like what’s not important and somewhat urgent. You can maybe delegate it or ask someone to do it for you or ask for help. And then for things, of course, that are not urgent and not important, you would essentially delete it or just simply not do it. So this philosophy is a simple, really simple philosophy, but it’s powerful in that you can start to use that language in your company.

And you might see a Slack message come across saying, hey, I have a question for you, not urgent. Or I have a question for you, urgent. And that might trigger a different way of responding or being available or accessible to your team. And that kind of insider language can help you to know, where do I need to sort my time and my priorities based on what’s in front of me right now. In the early days, Steve, everything was important and everything was urgent. And that’s the recipe for a marathon that feels like a sprint. And you just can’t get through that without a trail of people behind you, you know, laying on the ground. So that’s probably been one of the biggest things that’s helped us in terms of prioritizing and organizing our work.

Yes, and most small business owners live in that space, which is important. In fact, many of them fall into the trap of being driven by adrenaline. So whenever they have these fires blazing that they’re going to focus, get focused and really get things done, but they burn themselves out in the process. So when the fires have been taken out, then they essentially kick back and then they let go and they don’t do anything and then they’re gonna be in a fire soon.

That’s right.

And I always explain to my clients that the goal is to be driven not by adrenaline, which is an addiction and something that you’ve got to get rid of. It’s our vision and our goals that need to drive us in a consistent manner. So that’s a very important concept. Now, what I’m a little bit struggling with is this idea of not important, but urgent, and we want to delegate these things. I mean, if it’s not important, why do we need to delegate? Why don’t we just not do it?

That’s a really hard thing, because when you look at, say, four problems in front of you, and I’ll use the term problem to indicate it’s a challenge, an opportunity, a problem, however you want to describe it, and if you think about these four things in front of you, each one can’t be equal. There has to be some forced hierarchy in deciding, and perhaps this is like, where do I eat, where do I sleep, where do I, you know, drink, it’s these types of things, right? Or it could be this project A, project B, project C. At some point, you’re going to get to a place where you can’t apply the same level of resource to everything.

92: Apply the Eisenhower Matrix with Dave Romero Share on X

In other words, if you have the most urgent and important thing for your business, your biggest client, your most important activity, or your most important project, you more than likely want to stack the deck and have your best talent and your most capable people applied there. There’s always going to be something that falls a little lower and is less important. And the term not important is probably misleading in that I might use the term less important. And that is to say that it doesn’t stack quite as high as the most important thing that’s out there. And that might be something that you can hand over to somebody else who is qualified and capable to do it.

Perhaps it takes them a little bit longer than it would to take your best person or even yourself to go do. But what it means is that you’re applying the right focus of energy in the highest return on investment. And this is such a simple idea. We all know this. It’s like no one on this podcast right now is saying, gosh, I’ve never thought of that. We’ve all thought of that. The problem is, I think, we sometimes lack a framework or language for which to apply these types of decisions.

And so when I can explain to one of my peers or coworkers, you know, this is an important thing, but it’s not urgent for me right now. And if you do want some action on it, I can delegate it to somebody for you. Or if you can wait, I’ll schedule it and get to you at a later time. That helps people understand what’s going on and that there are other things inside the pipeline and that you have to focus.

So, the reason I’m kind of asking this question is because what I have found is sometimes those less important things, because they keep being pushed back, eventually you realize that they are actually not important. And it’s not just less important, they are not important. And I see, you know, this old saying that most companies die of indigestion rather than starvation So we we tend to err on the side of keeping things on the back burner As opposed to killing things and it’s so liberating when you kill things. I always tell my clients that Whatever you put on your issues, which is which you’re not gonna get into next 12 months And this is are you okay? You’re not doing now, but are you going to get there in the next four months? Is this going to be important in the next four months? Oh, probably not. Let’s take it off the list because it’s never going to happen and it’s just clutter.

Most companies die of indigestion rather than starvation. Share on X

I think that reminds me of a Bernay Brown quote, which is, will I care about this in the next ten minutes, the next ten hours, and the next ten days? And the answer to that question determines a lot of the energy and the effort that you should put into things. And just by way of kind of a story here for you, in the early days of Unboxed, when I was telling you that we did, we said yes to virtually everything, and everything was urgent and important. You know, we at that time had built out a learning portal.

We had built out a calculator tool to help with ROI. We had built out a CRM tool that helped to figure out different types of customer relationship things. We built out a e-book. I mean, I could just keep going and going and going. The reality is we became an inch deep and a mile wide. And so it’s a very seductive trap to get caught into because you want to say yes, you want to say urgent, important, urgent, important, but the outcome of doing that is very costly. You end up not being able to maintain the quality of those things over time.

We got to a position where we were failing our clients from time to time with our ability to continue to keep those things fresh and modern. We were losing the ability to stay abreast of the latest technology changes that were happening and the security changes and info security stuff happening because we were so wide on all these things. And it just kept going.

And so I think the cost of not using something like less important is greater over time. And so I always refer to that as the pain of same versus the pain of change, right? If I’m in this moment, the pain of same is painful, don’t get me wrong, but sometimes the pain of change and trying to undo all of those things that you did a long time ago can be quite hard. And that was us about five or six years ago. We literally said no. And so we took five different products that we used to sell off of our list and we stopped doing them.

It had a revenue impact, it had a people impact, it was one of the hardest decisions we ever made. Having done that though, we’ve been able to streamline our efforts into our core offerings now, which is a technology platform and content. And now that we’ve done that, we’ve not only surpassed previous numbers, but we’ve created much, much more innovative and more capable solutions for our clients.

This is a huge lesson and you mentioned that you were highly concentrated with a handful of clients and it is extremely dangerous because those clients start to own you, can’t afford to say no to them, so you get wider and wider and shallower and shallower, as you say, and then that prevents you from gaining other clients, which would require a focus solution. I have worked with a SaaS company, but they thought they were, but they were not really, because they were serving these big fortune companies with a solution, but essentially, they were customizing it for every single company, and they kept pushing off the SaaS product, which was basically the one-size-fits-all product that would have allowed them to scale. And they were hiring more people, and the business was getting more complex and more complex. And the investors are giving money for this future solution, but it was not coming. And it was so difficult. They got trapped in this. They were depending on the cash flow from all these big companies. So that’s extremely difficult to do and to go from having a handful and actually say no and shrink down. And then you grow in a focused manner. I would say eight out of 10 companies never able to do that, so kudos for you guys to be able to bite the bullet.

It has been through lessons learned from friends and other people who have gone through this before me. There’s nothing new here, you know, and that’s the thing that I’m so humbled by, being among different entrepreneurs and people who have been here before, the company you’re referring to, that was us. It absolutely was us at one point, and your road map gets determined by your clients. To some extent, that’s good, but on the flip side, there’s a trade-off to that, too. I see that the people who have done this before us and have come along and paved the way, that’s part of why I love sharing the stories and talking about this with people, because I just think that there’s really nothing new in all of this. We’re all learning in our own way and in our own pace. So I appreciate that.

It’s nothing new, but doing it is still difficult, right?

It is so much so.

Just because other people have been there doesn’t mean it makes it easier.

It can feel awfully lonely. It can feel like, am I the only one feeling this? Or is this only me? And the reality is no, it’s not. I believe that everybody goes through these challenges. And they can make you quite a bit more resilient to the next challenge that comes up. And that’s the key. I think I read at some point, I think it was in Simon Sinek’s book, The Infinite Game, that the world we’re in, in the business that we do, it isn’t in the spirit of becoming the best at business or the best at training or the best at whatever. If we have that mentality, that can drive us for a while, that adrenaline that you mentioned.

The goal is to simply just stay in the game. And attrition takes care of itself over time. And if you keep listening to customers, and you keep adapting, and you keep changing, and you keep making those improvements, you will over time overcome more and more and more challenges to the extent that it becomes easier to overcome the next challenge. And we actually kind of talk about that a lot from a continuous learning standpoint. You know, it’s the same as learning something new.

If I said to you, and this is a statistic, you know, in the next three years, over 50% of the skills at corporate levels, white collar corporate levels, are going to need to be relearned, mostly due to the acceleration of technology that we’ve seen with COVID and the pandemic, and also just simply seeing the AI and machine learning types of automation hit a new level. You know, where there used to be a person standing there, there’s a machine, and you see it all the time. So we refer to that change, that constant evolution and the pace of business change, we refer to that as skill agility, which is this idea that you need to have not only personal agility to develop skills at the pace of business change, but a company needs to have skill agility so that it can adapt and change as frequently as the business requires it to change.

Versus having a slow process, you know, the big boat that moves slowly, all of those things, that creates quite a bit more of a challenge in today’s environment with digitization. You might have been able to get away with that 20 or 30 years ago, but as a good statistic, and I love this one, it took over 50 years for 50 million people to fly on an airplane, which is just amazing to me, to think that it took that long. And it took nine days for 50 million people to use Pokemon Go. And so digital tools, apps, and the tools that we use every single day in our mobile phones and everything else are accelerating the pace of business change so much so that in 10 years time we won’t even recognize where we are today. So that agility to change your skills at the pace of the business requirements is going to be the next superpower.

Okay, well that’s a lot to wrap our minds around and I mean I love this connection between the infinite game and the entrepreneurial trial and error, you know, stay in the game, trial and error. In fact, one of the results of this trial and error is to figure out coping mechanisms or solutions to impenetrable looking problems. And then that becomes a competitive advantage.

And in your book, I’m writing about this idea of creating your own strategy stack, which is basically made up of solutions that you came up with because you were under pressure to survive a situation or to solve an intractable problem. And then if you build these together, these group of solutions will give you such a sustainable competitive advantage, it’s gonna be super hard to copy all of these things. Which is inside the secret sauce that you have that will make you very competitive and profitable, although you have to keep adding to it over time.

That sounds like the Holy Grail right there. I love that.

It is the Holy Grail. And when we look at IKEA, IKEA has been at the top of the furniture business for the last 50 years, and their biggest competitor is yeast, which is one-tenth of the size of Ikea. So they try to copy it, but there’s only so much they see, and that only gives them that much leverage. So it is possible. Southwest Airlines managed to stay in the top of the budget airline game for about 30 years.

Now they’re starting to erode their competitiveness there. So one thing that really struck a chord with me, so you talked about automation and how it is changing how we live and the 50 years and the nine days of Pokemon Go and this accelerating pace of things and how these digital employees are going to take over the routine tasks so that people are freed up to actually do more engaging and more thinking stuff. So how does that all play into your process of training and learning people with technology. I mean, you’re in smack right in the middle of this acceleration, aren’t you?

We are, yeah. And a lot of this, for better or for worse, has been accelerated tremendously through the pandemic. I mean, I will tell you, the number of people who even knew how to do a screen share using Zoom two years ago is vastly different than today. And now it is sort of expected and normal to do these types of interactions and make them comfortable and seamless. And that’s just a really simple example, but yet profound because we couldn’t even have imagined doing these things three years ago. We would have been on a plane, flying to go meet together. You and I would be in a room together. It would be that type of thing.

And now it’s just, it seems a bit inconvenient to even do it any other way in some cases. But it is really all about making sure that we establish a balance among all these different things. If we allow everything to go too far in one direction, we start to lose the goodness of the original things that we were doing. There’s always something good. And I think I live in a perpetual state of awareness of trade-offs in that there’s nothing that is the silver bullet, there’s no perfect solution. And I think about, you know, what are the trade-offs of digital learning and what are some of the benefits of that and what are some of the things that aren’t so good and what are the benefits of in-person, what are good and what are not. And what we look for at Unboxed is how we can blend those together in their best ways.

And so when you mentioned, you know, automation and whatnot a moment ago, it makes me think about how we have to create the opportunity for just-in-time training and moments in time where I can train inside the day versus make it big events. And so there’s a term that’s out there in our space that’s referred to as in the flow of work. And that concept is that I can learn things on demand or in the flow while I’m doing something. And it’s really no different than the help button in a lot of the software you see or, you know, somebody next to you pointing over your shoulder saying, hey, just click right here or do this thing while you’re in the flow, right?

But now that we’re working in so much of an asynchronous way and we’re in, you know, different time zones even and things like that. We need different tools and different technology and different content to help us learn things when we need to learn things or at the point of need is how I refer to it. And so while there’s different technology that’s helping with that, a lot of it still comes down to a human anticipating what is somebody going to need at that moment and finding the right amount of content and the right places to point people to go and learn those things. Inside that is an agility all in itself.

This idea that the generations that are entering and predominantly in the workforce now either grew up with on some level or their entire life have only known the internet. And I’ll speak for myself in saying that I really didn’t start using the internet until college. You know, that was kind of the point in time for me. But so much of the the workforce today grew up with it. And so what do you do when you need something? You go to Google and you solve for it. And companies have to start thinking about how they act more like Google versus a top down view of like, you’re an employee, you need to know these things because I said so.

So any company that can embrace this concept of, at the point of need, providing access and information and creating accessibility to anything that’s required, is going to be the company that can adapt and have more agility. And that at its core is where we fit in, this idea that we can create not just micro learning but nano learning, small bite-sized particles of content or training to help with a point in need versus the 60-page PowerPoint on page 38, I find what I’m looking for. And that’s the big shift that I think is going to start happening in our industry.

Any company that can embrace this concept of providing access and information at the point of need is going to be the company that can adapt and have more agility. Share on X

That’s super interesting because I think what happens with the 60 pages PowerPoint, you’re probably only going to learn nano things. You want to throw small things. And you might even not learn that because you get overwhelmed by all the other information that might even squeeze that piece of information out of your mind. That feels very intuitive, this nano learning idea. And the other thing that you mentioned, which is very, very true is at the point of need and this whole Google idea, this big shift that happened in marketing, for example, that you can no longer quote, quote people and kind of pound the pavement makes no sense whatsoever. You have to adjust to the customer’s buying cycle. You have to fit in with how they are looking for information, how they need the help. It’s not about us forcing it to them, it’s them pulling it from us. And how do you kind of get into this flow, that you’re part of that flow, and you can be in the right place at the right time. That’s a super, feels like a super complex thing. It is.

And that speaks a lot to, not only from our aspirations of how we want to grow the business, but also really how any business should be thinking. And that is, you know, we have to go back and think we’re in a world now where there’s information parity, you know, between the buyer and the seller. And if you go back, pre-internet even, there was this information asymmetry where the buyer didn’t have as much information as the seller. The seller knew more about their product, they knew more about the industry, they knew more about everything going on, and you would rely on them as the trusted advisor, if you will, to give you all this great information. And if you happen to like that person and you kind of liked what they talked about, you might be more inclined to buy from them.

But more than likely, when you show up into a company today as a seller, that person you’re talking to knows more than you, as much as you, and is probably really confused by the conflicting information that’s out there. And Gartner uses a model called the sense maker, which is this idea that I help as a seller, I try to make sense of all the information for you. Challenger has their own model and everybody has their own thing out there. But the real key is to say that I understand that we’re at an information parity level and that you as a buyer are more than likely in this kind of information overload state.

So, I’m not gonna show up and necessarily teach you anything. I might, however, make sense of it for you and give you perspective and use information that can help you to make a decision. And I think that, you know, with that in mind, it just changes so much of how we engage with people. And when you get to the point of a decision being made inside your company, whether you’re inside the company selling something inside the company, like I wanna take it to my head of training or my VP in sales or whatever and I want to tell them this is what we should do.

We have to assume that that person has a tremendous amount of information already, whether it’s right or wrong, they have it. And our job is to help make sense of it for them and to position it in such a way that takes into account that they already have a lot of information. And that’s a very unique place for a lot of people. You know, they feel like they’re fighting uphill battles and they feel like they’re not able to get consensus. And one of the most common decisions in a company, especially large organizations, is indecision.

You can’t get the committee of people to decide on something, so therefore we punt it down the road and we don’t make a decision, only for that issue to become worse and worse over time. And then finally, you make a rash decision, which may or may not be good. And it is why so many software projects fail and why so many training projects struggle. You know, you really get to this place where you’ve punted it too far and now you can’t be excellent with that work.

So the sense maker concept really, really, it resonates with me because it says, hey, we’re in a position now where we have so much information. I think right now knowledge doubles every 12 hours, I think is the new statistic. It is at this level of, between the Internet of Things and Siri and everything else going on, it is at this level where it’s overwhelming. And we have to try to make sense of all the information and present it in a way that actually meets the needs of that buyer.

That’s actually very inspiring because it means that, you know, if you have the curiosity, then you can basically serve those clients that you’re really interested in, because you will resonate with them and they will feel like you have a custom solution for them and it kind of helps, I think, both seller and buyer, because buyer is going to get more eyeballs from the people that really can help them, and the sellers will be able to work with those buyers that they can help, so it’s gonna be a more satisfying process, less frustrating process. It’s a very interesting thing.

So before, we’re getting close to our time, but before we wrap this up, you know, you talked about this nano learning and how these little pockets of learning at the point of need, how it’s gonna feed into this process for customers or soaking up the information. How does it change your hiring process? So when you are looking for the right people for onboards, is there a certain type of person that you are looking for that is able to do that, is able to think that way and to further the strength?

That’s a great question. And Steve, we’re in that right now. So I wanna be very transparent in that. I don’t have the solution figured out. If I did, I think I’d write a book just like you, actually. But I haven’t done that. What I’m learning though is that finding people who have an insatiable curiosity and somebody who understands that learning isn’t about perfection, it’s about progress, and that it’s okay to come forward with the sloppy copy of something and say, with the time that I had and the information I could gather, this is the work that I’ve been able to do, help me now, shape this, turn it into something bigger and better.

Finding people who have an insatiable curiosity and understand that learning isn't about perfection, it's about progress. Share on X

That personality is it’s a special and really important personality for a learner to have. And in particular, it’s in contrast to the person who goes to school and there’s this concept of like, of learn to work, which is like, I go to school to become you know, a we’ll say an accountant, right? And I get my accounting degree. And I enter the workforce, and the expectation is I should know how to do accounting. And if I ask questions and raise my hand and say, I don’t know, it appears that I’m dumb, or I’m not smart, or I didn’t do very well in school, and that would out me as an imposter. Well, that mentality has to go away.

And what we need to embrace is more of a work to learn model which is this idea that instead of going to school to learn everything I need so that I can work, it is that I come to work and at work I learn what I need when I need to learn it. And so there’s an open atmosphere where you can embrace the unknown and be given coaching and direction without punitive outcomes. I’m allowed to share as far as I’ve gotten and receive feedback in a positive way and then go iterate and improve upon it.

And so we’ve forever said things like even with our clients when we get into strategy based work and consulting, you know to set plans, we talk about design thinking sessions and we do quite a bit of surveys and design thinking and you know, just creative exercises to get all of the stuff out there and it’s really no different for a new hire, for somebody joining the company. So looking for that person who says, I’m open to and will embrace the uncertainty that comes with learning and the discomfort that comes with learning is the character trait that we’re looking for.

And I think that is, overall, it’s a special and hard to find kind of person. Not everybody’s going to be that way. So from a diversity standpoint, you’ve got to have all types. And I think it’s important to also have planners and thinkers and all of the different folks that are in the mix, but as it relates to true learning folks, people who have a thirst and an insatiable curiosity, that’s who we’re looking for.

Yeah, this curiosity is huge and also the ability to maintain that because young people tend to be more curious than other people, and when you have the curiosity and you can maintain it, then that’s a superpower.

I can’t underscore and highlight the importance of having all types of people. As an example, there’s so many different profiling tools out there. There’s DISC, there’s Strengths Finders, there’s all of those things. I tend to be a very similar, every time I’ve taken the Steve, I’m on the StrengthsFinder, I’m activator, I’m competition, I’m the kind of guy, competition isn’t so much against others, but against myself. What I did yesterday isn’t as good as whatever I’m doing and I gotta keep up.

So I need people around me who can calibrate me and say, hey Dave, sit down, you know, it’s okay, you don’t have to go activate right now. And those different and very diverse skill sets are critically important. And we refer to it a lot as a recipe for success. If you think about recipes, and I asked you, what makes your chocolate chip cookies so good? You wouldn’t say, I use more sugar or more flour or more egg. Anytime you disrupt the recipe, you get negative outcomes.

So the importance is that you have the right ratios of each thing inside of it. And maybe you have a secret ingredient, right? You have sprinkles or something like that, and that’s okay. That’s really important. But it isn’t to say if you just made a cookie with flour and no sugar that it would be a delicious cookie. And that’s how we see it here. It’s really a recipe of all types, but in particular having an interest in learning and you’re okay and resilient through the discomfort of learning, that trait is a very important thing.

Okay, well that’s a great final thought. So definitely I’m going to think about the diversity and the learning and how they come together and how they kind of being the yeast for each other. I think it’s a very interesting concept. So if people would like to learn more about Unboxed and you have a consulting arm, you have the product, training and technology product, and big companies I think would benefit from this nano learning that you explained, where should they go? How can they find out about that more and what to do.

I see I’m not a I’m not a big I sometimes think that I’m not a big enough promoter of things and I’ll just say this. I enjoy these types of discussions so much. Hit me up on LinkedIn. Just go to LinkedIn. Connect with me please. I enjoy conversations even if it doesn’t lead to us working together in some capacity. Maybe I can connect you to somebody or make a reference to you, but this is what I do, this is my passion and my world. I thought at one point with a biology degree I’d go into teaching, it turns out I’m teaching in different ways and I love that. So please do, connect with me on LinkedIn, I love getting in those spirited conversations and would be happy to help anyone.

Well Dave, you’re definitely teaching at scale through your company, so definitely find Dave Romero on LinkedIn and also check out Unboxed Training and Technology. Comes up, just put in Unboxed and it’ll pop up on your screen. And if you enjoy the show, please don’t forget to review and subscribe on YouTube as well. And stay tuned because next week I’m gonna bring another exciting entrepreneur to the show. Thank Dave for coming and sharing your thoughts.


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