83: Position Your Business with Saleema Vellani

Saleema Vellani is an award-winning innovation strategist, serial entrepreneur, professor, and author of the book Innovation Starts With ‘I.’ She is also the Founder and CEO of Ripple Impact, an accelerator and community that helps entrepreneurs grow their businesses. We talk about innovation in today’s business environment, how to future-proof your business, and the benefits of adopting a hybrid-preneurship lifestyle.

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Position Your Business with Saleema Vellani

Our guest is Saleema Vellani, the founder and CEO of Ripple Impact, an accelerator and community that helps entrepreneurs grow their businesses and platforms. Saleema is a serial entrepreneur, a joint professor of social entrepreneurship at the Johns Hopkins University, and the best-selling author of Innovation Starts With I. Saleema, welcome to the show.

Thank you so much for having me. Really excited to be here.

Well, it’s great to have you, and I’m glad you made it back from your trip to the Middle East just in time for our podcast recording. So as always, my first question is about about your entrepreneurial journey. So, how did you become one yourself and what has been your journey to ripple impact?

The full story is in the book. So if you want to know all the details, it’s all in the book. But how I got into entrepreneurship was complete lack of awareness that I was becoming an entrepreneur. I wasn’t trying at all to become an entrepreneur. And I don’t know if I should say it was totally by accident, but it was essentially out of necessity. It was when I had graduated during the financial crisis in 2009, I graduated from McGill University, I’m Canadian. I couldn’t get a job in North America. I tried my best and I realized, you know, maybe I need to just go get some international experience, go live abroad some more.

I had already lived in the Dominican Republic, but I wanted to learn a new language. So I went to Brazil where I could learn Portuguese and decided to do some work at a volunteer at an orphanage. And when I got to Brazil, the founder of the orphanage was like, well, why don’t you start a language school in Rio de Janeiro to help finance us at the orphanage, because we’re having some serious challenges. And I was like, whoa, I thought I was going to work with kids. And now I’m being sent to start a school in such a complex country where you don’t even speak the language. But I took on the challenge and got a team together, volunteers.

We started building the school from the ground up, teaching all these different languages because we were volunteering, a bunch of volunteers from different parts of Europe. And yeah, it was interesting, but we were failing pretty quickly when we realized that a lot of our classes for Brazilians were either, they were pretty much group classes, but they were private lessons because only one student would show up at most. And so we realized very quickly we had to change our business model and realize that the interest was more, the demand was more, you know, the foreign students interested in learning Portuguese and we hired some Portuguese teachers to test that out.

And that was very successful because those students, the foreigners, were coming from, you know, from other countries. They were interested in doing something with social, like social impact in Brazil and contributing to a good cause while learning Portuguese. And we would take them to the orphanage and build a community, take them to samba classes or capoeira. And that was very successful. Today, it’s one of the top rated schools in Brazil. And many other schools and organizations have sort of replicated this model of social innovation. And that’s how I got started, was really co-founding something.

I was pretty much an intrapreneur first, really innovating with some direction, with the resources and all of this. But it was that experience that gave me the skills, the resilience, the experience on how to really start something and all the, you know, going through a pivot and all the different things that a new business does that I was able to then move to Italy from Brazil. There’s a whole love story in there, that’s in my book. But essentially, you know, same thing, crisis, Euro crisis, couldn’t get a job in the South of Italy in Reggio di Calabria across from Sicily. I didn’t speak British English. I was cooking Italian-American food that didn’t meet the expectations there in Italy.

So I ended up doing some translation work online and quickly realized the demand was from English into other languages. So instead of doing all the freelance translation myself, realized the demand was into other languages. And that’s when my translation business was able to scale up, which I exited from in 2012. So yeah, it was really out of crisis, out of necessity, not planned, not trying to be an entrepreneur. In fact, I was quite embarrassed about being an entrepreneur and nobody really knew. I was very quiet about it on social media, didn’t have a website. I was very, very careful because my whole dream was to get a job in my career.

And when I actually got that job, when I moved to Washington, D.C. and finishing up my grad school at Hopkins. I realized that being an entrepreneur was cool and that’s what everyone wanted to do around me and when I had moved to the States and I was like, oh, I didn’t know about these communities and ecosystems and VCs and mentors and all this stuff. I was really doing it a lot on my own. And so it was then that I was aware that I had been an entrepreneur before after I had been there and done it.

So that’s great. So, you know, you’re not the only one who becomes an entrepreneur because of not having a job and being forced into it, but definitely a very inspiring story of how you did that in Brazil and in Italy and then came back to have a job. And then now you’re back being an entrepreneur again with Ripple Impact. So what is Ripple Impact trying to do?

So Ripple Impact, we basically have accelerators. So we help entrepreneurs who are trying to grow and scale their businesses. We help them, you know, essentially we’re the team behind the scenes for them. So we partner with them, where we help accelerate them closer to the vision. We help them build their teams or grow their teams. We help them, you know, create or improve their brands. We help them with their marketing and their business strategy, as well as some execution.

So Ripple Impact, we basically have accelerators. So we help entrepreneurs who are trying to grow and scale their businesses. Click To Tweet

So we’re essentially, you know, they’re the visionaries, you know, an innovative team, or CP has a visionary, a strategist, executors, and designers. And so we’re essentially their designers, their strategists, their executors, to some extent, while helping them build their own executors and their team, but they’re the visionaries. And so we take off a lot of the overwhelm, a lot of the, you know, the stuff that really makes them burn out and get really frustrated when they feel like they’re not growing or it’s a lot more work than they envisioned and we help accelerate them so they can then grow faster and eventually be better off on their own once they have all the right pieces and the strategy flowing.

Because they tend to have a lot of drive and not enough direction. They’re sort of all over it because they’re so passionate about so many things and especially visionaries tend to have a lot of ideas, we want to do a lot of things, but it’s not great when we’re the visionary and executing and strategizing and designing.

You have them focus on where they’re going and you also give them some tools, especially in the marketing and design area where you have them ramp up their sales.


That sounds pretty exciting. So let’s switch the conversation a little bit to the business frameworks, which is the main kind of theme of this podcast. And in our previous call, we talked about different frameworks that you use and one of them struck a chord with me, which you call the business positioning canvas. Can you tell us a little bit about what this is about and how it works?

So the business positioning framework, it’s essentially, you know, that canvas is really an iteration of Alex Osterwalder’s business model canvas. I had actually interviewed Alex Osterwalder, who created it a couple of years ago, actually was one of my first interviewees for the book. I interviewed 100 people, Ariana Huffington, Ina Ansari, a lot of people, and he was one of them, one of my favorite ones, actually, because I learned a lot from the 30 minutes we shared.

And I’d used the business model canvas as a tool for over a decade now, not even when I started my first businesses, but when I came to learn and I was studying entrepreneurship and realized I was an entrepreneur before, when I came to the States, the business model canvas was like the standard tool that was used. But I realized that, you know, like most tools, we have to iterate, we have to improve, we have to sort of make things more relevant to the times.

And so I found that there were some gaps I wanted to address in the business model canvas, like I felt like there should be, you know, some analyzing of success, you know, success stories, and there should be some other parts in there, more emphasis on the team and some other pieces in there. Also because I found that when working with startups and entrepreneurs, sometimes there’s too much focus on what problem we should solve. And maybe that was the case maybe a decade ago.

But now it’s tricky because we have a lot of things out there. We have a lot of problems that are already solved. So it’s not necessarily finding a problem, but you can start with an idea. In my experience, the language school that I was at, co-founded in Brazil was an idea. Sure, there was a problem with the orphanage, but the problem of the actual business model of the language school was that Portuguese students who are foreigners wanted to learn Portuguese, but they weren’t necessarily, the problem of the orphanage integrating and the whole thing around them wanting to contribute to social impact and all of this, that wasn’t necessarily a thing that we were aware of.

Same with the translation business. Knowing that businesses would want to hire a team like us that could translate their websites into different languages at the time wasn’t necessarily a problem that I was looking to solve. I was trying to solve my own problem. You know, innovation starts with I. I was trying to solve my own problem so I could live in Italy. And that’s when I started just ideating and just trying different things, failing and failing until I said, well, let me go and try to translate online.

And it was only after I got started and I saw the success of clients wanting, you know, that I translated into English and they were like, now can you translate this into 10 other languages? That’s when the problem became apparent. And that’s an example of something that I incorporated into the business positioning canvas because sometimes we don’t always know what problem we’re trying to solve. I think that we can start with an idea. And so the canvas is really sort of an iteration of the business model canvas to today’s times and focused on ideas, focused on teams, focused on success stories. How can we learn from those success stories and iterate and that sort of thing, especially with my experience in innovation and design thinking.

Business positioning canvas is really sort of an iteration of the business model canvas to today's times and focused on ideas, focused on teams, focused on success stories. How can we learn from those success stories and iterate them. Click To Tweet

Okay, so this business, Positioning Canvas, is this part of your book? Can people check it out in your book or is it available somewhere where people can look at it?

Yeah, it’s available. It’s in the book right now. I have a tool that we’ve used for clients that you can use it in like a sort of as a Google slide sort of format, kind of like the business model canvas, but we haven’t launched it yet publicly, but they can definitely take or it’s in the workbook as well if they want to use the tool that’s in the workbook to actually apply it. But otherwise, you know that it’s in the book so they can easily sort of replicate it onto a whiteboard or draw it on a mirror board or somewhere and use the same content, the same boxes. But essentially, yeah, you can you can pretty much use that framework, however.

Okay, all right. So maybe we can talk about it later, about where to find it in the book and where to find your book as well. So moving on, I mean, it really was interesting. You made it clear what the title of the book really means that it’s people start companies because of trying to solve their own problems, I guess is what you refer to. Tell me a little bit about the premise of the book, Innovation Starts With I, and why did you write it?

So the book started out back in 2014. So it’s after I realized I had been an entrepreneur before and I was trying to figure out how do I do it again? How do I get started? Do I need to go through a crisis to be able to innovate and become an entrepreneur again? Because at that point I was quite comfortable in my job and I had ticked off my career, you know, that’s what I thought success was, but I wasn’t really happy inside. And after being exposed to other, you know, entrepreneurs or aspiring entrepreneurs, I was like, well, how do I, if I’m going to help them is actually, I was actually helping them build remote teams.

And I was working with Elance or Elance O’Desk, now Upwork, and I was struggling to figure out how can I do it for myself again? And you know, what I realized was I needed to, I wanted to write about it. And I was very interested in doing some research. I was interviewing some folks and I was attending a lot of events and trying to grow my knowledge base. And I thought writing a book, it just felt like I had a calling to write a book to help unleash the entrepreneur within people. But I also realized I wasn’t ready to write a book yet. I hadn’t accomplished all the things I wanted to accomplish and I hadn’t figured it out for myself yet.

So I put the book on pause for about five years and I came back to it in 2019 when I was actually then doing design thinking workshops in Liberia and in Africa and different countries. And it was in Monrovia, Liberia at the innovation campus there at iCampus. I had this sort of realization after these entrepreneurs there were very much interested in my background, my stories, they were like, can I get your autograph, do you have a TED Talk I can listen to, do you have a book I can read? And I was like, oh, wow, I have no way to follow up on this. And also, my reach is very limited by like the workshops I was able to do in these different countries.

And I didn’t know about COVID at the time, obviously, this was a few months before that happened. But I wanted to make my, you know, my story, my the tools, these insights more accessible around the world. And so I decided at that point in Liberia, I was going to commit to writing this book and get it done. And it took a lot longer than I thought, but essentially it was basically a follow up on like what I had originally thought of, which is how do you unleash the entrepreneur within you? But it’s now, I guess, if I iterated to the point where it’s more about how to really reinvent yourself and your business, especially in the uncertain future we’re living in.

So it’s more I had to sort of tweak it during the pandemic to make it more relevant to today’s times. And there’s these 12 future proof capabilities throughout the book. So it’s really helping people future proof themselves, whether you’re an innovator, you’re an entrepreneur, you’re a leader, you’re a professional trying to pivot or just proactively reinvent yourself. I think these days, the key is in this reinvention revolution, whoever really has these human capabilities, these human skills like empathy, self-awareness, storytelling, influence, authenticity, collaboration, originality, intuition.

There’s 12 of them in the book. Each chapter has one that focuses on one capability. With those capabilities, those future proof capabilities, you can really navigate the future of work that we’re currently living in successfully. And it really is a toolkit. There’s lots of visual tools in the book. Thanks to Alex Osterwald, his recommendation. There’s a lot of visuals, a lot of inspiring parts, you know, not just my own story, but the wisdom from other leaders since I did interview 100 people, as I mentioned.

Okay, so you talk about the humanity that, you know, future-proofing as you call it, requires us to be much more, bring out our own humanity, the creativity, the emotional intelligence. So why has this become, I mean, has this become more important, or are we just discovering that this is important all along, but we just now realizing it because we are more aware of things? Or has there been a shift that people need to focus on these specific skill skills for the future to be successful? So, is this a new trend or is it just an awareness that we developed about these things?

That’s a great question, so it was already developing, so you know a lot of these things were outlined by the World Economic Forum with the fourth industrial revolution. A lot of things were already in development, but it was a lot of talk, you know, we talked about the future of work. We talked about a lot of things, but no one knew that COVID was going to come or the world would change this fast and this drastically, you know, the great resignation and all these events happening, that people really needed these skills faster than ever before.

They were forced to reinvent themselves faster and more frequently than ever before. We just saw so much shuffling happen. And so it just became more relevant, even though my book was already going to talk about a lot of things that it talks about, it just became more relevant. So I was able to amplify the parts that were more relevant and interview more people during the pandemic to be able to make the book more relevant to the current times. And and yeah, I would just say, you know, we we needed these human skills. And it was clear that technology was moving at a fast pace. We just didn’t know that businesses were going to have to digitally transform that fast.

But you said about many of the traditional mechanical jobs being automated that people now have to turn even in artificial intelligence or even the kind of the logical jobs, maybe get also the rational logical jobs or those that require the skills the next frontier is maybe the emotional, emotionally engaging jobs or where you have to create a connection. Is it that these jobs are going to dominate the future workforce or the need for workers?

So there’s a couple of things happening since technology is replacing things and, you know, things around technology are oftentimes getting cheaper, faster, better very quickly. And so we see that human skills are irreplaceable. So people that are using certain human skills in their jobs or their businesses, those skills, people that have people skills at the end of the day, people drive business, right? It’s teams that build businesses. It’s that talent. It’s people, relationships that drive business. That has always been the case that will never change.

You know, that that’s just the way business works. And so at the end of the day, those human skills are very key. While the technology and all that moves very fast, there’s more value being placed on the human skills. An example of what you said, you know, like in the content, for example, I talk a lot about hybrid-preneurship in Chapter 3 and the importance of being both an entrepreneur and an intrapreneur and being able to have that entrepreneurial mindset, building a community, making an impact, you know, engaging in curiosity and growth and learning constantly, carrying out some of your passion projects or incorporating passion into your work.

It’s important to embrace, you know, that hybrid partnership lifestyle, because if you want to really thrive in this future of work, building your community and doing all those things really helps you excel and really helps you sort of build your own platform so you can attract opportunities to you. Example is, for example, you said accountant. An accountant that works in a traditional firm might not be as successful as an entrepreneur, as an accountant that’s more of like an entrepreneur that builds a community around them.

It's important to embrace hybrid partnership lifestyle, because if you want to really thrive in this future of work, building your community it really helps you excel and build your own platform so you can attract opportunities to you. Click To Tweet

Maybe an accountant that’s posting videos and has a YouTube audience or that differentiates in some way because they’re engaging a community of people that will then reform our business to them than just an accountant that goes in and out or maybe just has their business completely word of mouth or people coming into their office in the traditional way. That might not be the case. And when it has a virtual platform, might be able to excel a lot faster and reach new audiences.

And it just, it’s more sustainable in the long run, or they might be able to build up a bigger practice. And so it’s important to be able to engage virtually, build your presence virtually, build your influence and be able to make a bigger impact through diversifying your hats. If you’re just specialized in one area, for some careers that works, you know, like for doctors, certain specialized careers, that still works, and there’s still going to be a high demand for those skills.

But certain parts of those traditional careers and more specialized ones, the people that really differentiate themselves, build an audience around them, they’re more likely to be able to survive if their job gets replaced by technology or something happens, or they want to make a career switch. We see a lot of lawyers, for example, that call themselves recovering lawyers because they go in for a few years and like, oh, this job isn’t for me. And then they want to switch. And having that sort of future-proofing with those human skills and building a platform that will help navigate that so you don’t have to start from scratch all over again.

So this concept of hybrid-preneurship, so just, I don’t know if I understand it well, but is it about being entrepreneurial, but also being, having a platform, or maybe I’m missing half the equation.

So being a hybrid-prenuer is usually when you’re both an entrepreneur within an organization or you’re supporting organizations in some way by helping them innovate, as well as being an entrepreneur. So whether you are, let’s just say you’re fully employed and you’re building your business on the side, because maybe five years from now, you want to make your corporate exit. Or maybe you’re a consultant like me where you’re providing support to organizations without being fully internal, but you’re still consulting for larger organizations while doing your own passion project or running your own business full time. So it’s basically there’s different ways, different setups.

So being a hybrid-prenuer is usually when you're both an entrepreneur within an organization or you're supporting organizations in some way by helping them innovate, as well as being an entrepreneur. Click To Tweet

There’s no one way to go about it. But essentially, yes, you are building in both instances, you’re building a community around you. This has been really interesting, especially for people that are more introverted that maybe weren’t so used to doing this and not realizing the importance of building a community. Sure, you can be comfortable in your full-time job, but if you’re building something on the side that might blow up 10 years from now, or maybe you want to quit, you don’t know yet, but maybe you’ll, you know that maybe you’ll want to reinvent yourself in the future.

It sort of helps by starting early to build up that network, build up, you know, your story, your, you know, diversify your hats a bit. So you can make that exit strategically and not just when you need to. You don’t want to have to go through a crisis or a life quick the way I did. Some people need that to happen to really innovate and succeed. But if you’re proactive with the tools in the book, you might not need to have that bad of a life quake and be able to reinvent more smoothly.

So basically you have a job, you have a paycheck, but on the side, you are building your brand on social media and you’re following and maybe you’re thought leadership and then at some point you get the tipping point when you can make, you can pull the plug and you can go full time. Actually, I just very recently I recorded a podcast with an airline pilot who’s been flying planes for 25 years for United but he also has a side gig, which is a venture funded business, which I find amazing. And he had already built another business, a multi-location franchise business on the side of being an airline pilot. Okay, so let’s switch gears here. So you talk in your book about different frameworks that you developed to help human-centered innovation. Can you give me one or two examples of these frameworks and kind of describe them?

So one way to do that is I’d say there’s a tool in chapter 3 called sweet spot mapping. And sweet spot mapping is a great tool to figure out what’s the thing that you can specialize or sort of like a path or a niche that you can or a micro niche that you want to focus on. And essentially, it’s starting with what, not why. Because oftentimes we can get very confused when we try to find our why statement without analyzing the what, what have we actually done in the past.

So first off, what are the things that you’ve excelled at, that you know that you’re very good at? What are the things that people say you’re really good at that you’ve gotten praise or positive feedback on? What are some of the things that, you know, you’re very, very passionate about that you love doing, you would do for free, or you wake up and do them at five in the morning because you love doing them so much.

And from there, after analyzing all the what’s of what you’ve done, then you can find your through line of the why and then figure out what are the things you’re open to testing? What are some of those ideas that maybe you’ve quieted yourself, those ideas that come at like three in the morning, those ideas that come while you’re in the shower, you’re walking outside, and really start figuring out how you can execute some of those ideas in a small scale. Really just keep them small in scope as projects.

You might not want to start a business yet. Maybe you want to start a podcast. Maybe you want to write a book. Maybe you want to just write an article, maybe you just want to like do something small, do some volunteer work, and keeping them as small projects that you’re able to execute will then give you insights, and then just focus on giving value to other people. When you do that, you’re able to then sort through all of that and figure out, well, what’s that thing that you want to sort of take on it and scale up? And so that’s one of the tools. Another tool, there’s quite a few of them in my book, but another one that I think is really great is the action priority matrix.

And so figuring out like what’s the thing that you know requires the least amount of impact, sorry, the least amount of effort but has the most amount of impact or something that maybe requires a lot of effort but has a really, really big amount of impact. So for me, you know, doing things like sharing my stories and testing some of the book tools and stuff on social media was very little effort, but it led to a lot of impact because I was able to realize what people were responding well to and what would be successful in the book. But actually writing the book or launching a business like Ripple Impact took a lot of effort, but also has a lot of impact.

Wow, I love that. So you call it action parity matrix, the second one?

Action parity matrix, it’s not something that I created myself per se. It’s definitely something that I have iterated or adapted from other frameworks that already exist. There’s a bunch of different things that already exist. The Eisenhower matrix, there’s so many frameworks that already exist, like Alex Osterwald, there’s Business Model Canvas. Really, what I did in my book was I created a journey. So some of the tools are more original, like Sweet Spot Mapping, I created that one that I explained to you initially. But a lot of people might realize it’s very similar to IKIGAI or it’s similar to some other things that they’ve seen. They just haven’t seen that version before. And so I’ve adapted, you know, the Johari window. I’ve adapted so many things that helped me in my journey and adapted it in a way that could really help the reader.

So, if you wanted to describe that journey that you talk about, you know, first and the last step of the journey, how would you describe it?

For the book or for which part?

Yeah, so you say that the book describes the journey that someone who wants to be maybe an entrepreneur has to follow? I want to be an innovative entrepreneur. What does the journey look like?

So the beginning of that journey is usually they’re a bit lost or a bit stuck, or they’re not really sure how to get started. They know there’s something more that they want to do. They know they’re not living their full purpose, that they have some, they have lots of ideas, they’re not sure where to start or where to focus. And so the book aims to provide clarity based on, you know, helping them strengthen their self-awareness initially, since self-awareness is very key for innovation to really happen.

And then, you know, through gaining skills and empathy, collaboration, all of that, they start with I, but then they figure out how they can actually execute their idea with the we, and then they are able to scale their impact in the world with the last part of the book, which focuses on world with lots of tools and stories on how to really focus and make their impact. And so by the end of the book, you’re going through that process. They’re able to, to come up with a project or, uh, work on something that, you know, they’ve been keeping on the back burner and bring more focus to it and hopefully scale it up. So they start somewhere kind of lost and there they end up reinvented and going from basically a 1.0 version of themselves to a 2.0 version of themselves or a 2.0 to 3.0 or 3.0 to 4.0.

So basically the way I understand this, so you said that, study the what, analyze what you’re good at and very good feedback, and then you discover your why from there, and then you create that innovation by self-awareness and empathy and trying to, yes, empathize and starting with you, so maybe this is a problem that you have and you empathize with your potential markets, what they would have, how they would have the problem, and then you recruit people, that’s the V, and then you scale it, that’s the work piece, right?

Exactly, and the middle part of the book that’s focused on we, since innovation gets executed through teams, communities, through relationships with people, I focus a lot on like, there’s this one statement I say at the beginning of one of the chapters is that we might start with, you know, we often start with why, or we might start with why, but things actually happen with the who and with people. And so it debunks a bit of Simon Sinek there. I love Simon Sinek’s work, but yeah, you might start with why, but I really think that we should start with why and make things happen with who, and the why becomes more apparent when we’re actually in that process.

That’s interesting. And Jim Collins says that you have to start with the who and get the right people on the bus and put them in the right seats. And if you have a good team, then you will figure out where you can be useful and how you can do that. And so there’s many ways of skinning a cat, I guess, many ways of skinning an entrepreneur. Exactly. So that’s fascinating. So definitely Saleema Vellani and Innovation Starts With I. That’s a great book. It’s on Amazon. I checked it out. So if you would like to read the book, I guess this is the best place to go. Although you also have it on your website, right? There was a Kickstarter campaign that you did as well. Is it still open?

So I mean Indiegogo essentially is still open, although we haven’t really been pushing it. But I mean, if someone wants a personally signed book, they could order it on Indiegogo. It’s pretty easy to find it if you Google it, Indiegogo, my name or innovation sources. I you can also get the book, the e-book or like the Kindle, the paperback, the hard cover. Those are all available on Amazon. And, you know, people want a custom order or signed copies or whatever. They can go to my website or innovation sources. I dot com and the workbook is also on the website, innovationstarswithi.com. There are also some free resources.

So if a company wants a design thinking toolkit, if you want to go on a 100 Coffee Challenge, I didn’t really talk much about it in this episode, but the 100 Coffee Challenge was really a tool that really helped me be successful when I was trying to reinvent myself, and even when I was trying to make this a really good book. And there’s also an Innovation Stars With I digital journal. Those tools are all accessible for free on innovationsstarswithi.com.

Wonderful. Well, definitely check it out on Saleema Vellani’s website, innovationstarswithi.com. So great to have, it was great to have you and have a conversation with you on the show as the last event recorded before the new year. So thank you for coming. And for our listeners, if you enjoyed this discussion then definitely stay tuned. Every week there is a new episode coming out with a new exciting entrepreneur. And if you enjoy the show, please don’t forget to wait and review us on Apple Podcasts and subscribe on YouTube. Thank you. Have a great day. Thank you, Saleema.

Thank you so much, Steve. Thank you so much, Steve. And thanks everyone for listening.


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