65: Leverage the Truth and the Facts with Jeff Berkowitz

Jeff Berkowitz is the Founder and CEO of Delve LLC, a competitive intelligence and risk advisory firm. We talk about managing reputation risk, business integrity, and the benefits of setting ethical boundaries with clients. 

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Leverage the Truth and the Facts with Jeff Berkowitz

Our guest is Jeff Berkowitz, the founder and CEO of Delve LLC, which is a competitive intelligence and risk advisory firm that helps fortune companies, industry associations, political campaigns, and advocacy and educational groups mitigate political and reputational risks. Jeff managed messaging and research operations for the White House, several major political campaigns, the Republican National Committee, and the U.S. Department of State before forming Delve. So welcome to the show, Jeff.

Thanks, Steve. Glad to be here.

I’m excited to have you. It’s definitely a very interesting background that you have. And I’m wondering how did you, with all this professional background, working for the White House and political parties and fortune companies, how do you end up becoming an entrepreneur?

By accident, and the therapy didn’t work. So I had a great career in politics and government. And after my last job, a little over 11 years ago, didn’t really have a plan for what was next, but folks started approaching me, they needed research and I was happy to take their money until I figured out what was next. And little did I know that it was really the clients preceding the firm. And what we realized over time was the kind of research and analysis that we take for granted in political campaigns and running government operations, there really wasn’t anyone built to do that for corporate public affairs and government relations professionals.

And to provide them with the kind of insights they needed to help their CEOs, their C-suites, their management teams and investors navigate political and reputational risks and understand what those are, how to avoid them. And so no one was doing that. So we kind of swam into that blue ocean, planted a flag and said, if you’re going to engage in public affairs and in today’s environment, most companies don’t get a choice of whether they will or not, you’re going to need an information advantage from understanding who your stakeholders are and what they’re up to and how they align or don’t align with your own business and policy objectives.

Okay. That’s very intriguing and I want to really dig deep into that with you. But before I do that, I’d like to ask you, whether in the process of building Delve, were you inspired by any business blueprints or business frameworks or management blueprints, I call them, that you found in a book or learned somewhere that you implemented partially or fully in your business?

I mean, if there’s a book about how to run a business, I’ve probably read it. Yeah, I’m a researcher at heart. And I certainly, once I kind of realized, you know what, this is a business, this is something, and I didn’t know what that meant. I didn’t know, okay, well, it’s easy enough to take clients’ monies, but then once you start adding employees, you start adding structure, you start scaling. When we officially launched, we went from four and a half employees to more than 12 employees in less than a year while we were tripling revenue.

So if you don’t have some sort of structure and organization to that, that’s not going to be sustainable. So I read a lot of books. I read Scaling Up, I read Traction, a lot of these books and took a lot away from them. Certainly a lot of those all kind of draw from Jim Collins and Good to Great and the principles that he identified for companies that can sustainably grow. Probably the author that most in sort of leadership, business thinker that struck me the most and that we found the most helpful is Patrick Lencioni. He has a lot of great books.

Scaling a business requires structure and organization, especially when adding employees and tripling revenue. Share on X

The Advantage kind of brings all of his other books together. His structure around not just the high-level theory of how do you come up with a strategy, right? How do you get that rallying cry to get the whole team aligned? But then how do you then build that down into the organization? How do you communicate with each other? How do you maintain consistent rhythms, make sure that you’re living a set of values that everyone is buying into and everybody knows where the company is going and what role they play in it. The structures he puts in place, I think were most useful for us in getting to where we have.

Yes, I mean, ultimately Patrick Lencioni, he always writes about people and how people behave and how people are motivated. And a professional service firm like yours is all about people, right? It’s your experts and your clients as well. It’s all individual situations and you have to read between the lines. So what are some of the concepts that you are using on a regular basis in Delve?

Sure, so we use, he has, one of his great books is around preventing silos and internal politics. One of the big things that drove me to start Delve is my last job at a national political organization. There was a lot more internal politics than there was external politics going on. And there was a lot of this infighting. I’m like, but this is a mission-driven organization. Why are we fighting with each other? We’re supposed to be fighting for this political cause. And I didn’t want to work in an organization that was like that.

I wanted to build an organization that had a stable base where everybody understood what our purpose was, what was our mission, where we were going, and we’re excited about that and working together in a way that everybody enjoyed showing up to work instead of, I don’t want to have to deal with Bill because Bill’s mean to me and I don’t want to fight with Susie because she’s always wrong about these things. We’re all here for the same reason.

And so I found that book really interesting because it provides that structure of, you know, what’s your thematic goal for the next, you know, six months, 12 months? What’s that most important thing that you’ve got to do as a business to reach those long-term goals that you have? And for us, you know, our long-term goal, our BHAG, big, hairy, audacious goal, is to make competitive intelligence an expected component of any successful public affairs operation. If you’re going to engage in using policy apparatus to move towards your business goals, you’ve got to have an effective public affairs operation.

Setting thematic goals is vital for the next six to twelve months, focusing on the most important steps toward long-term goals. Share on X

And if you’re not making that operation smart through insights like the kind that we offer, you’re going to fail. And so we’ve been on this mission to convince people that that’s the case. And we’ve figured out some of the base camps along the way of what tells us whether we’re on that road or not. And so we look at, okay, so if that’s the long-term vision, what do we need to get done now in the business that’s most important?

And then you think about sort of what are the objectives within that that you need to achieve to get to that goal, to meet that thematic goal. So we’ve had rallying cry changes. Our rallying cry this year has really been about leadership development. Especially when it comes to professional services firm, they tend to be very principle-driven. But that means that a lot is riding on the principal’s shoulders and we really want to grow the rest of our leadership team to make sure that things can happen in the business that don’t rely on me being directly involved in it and making sure clients can trust them and they know how to handle things without me having to be involved in it.

So a lot of our rallying cry is about how do we build that internal infrastructure for growth because you can go out and win a bunch of contracts, but then you get swamped under that work. And as the principal, I can’t be out there getting more new business. And the old joke in professional services is you’re always three months away from bankruptcy. Because you win a bunch of work and then you’re busy doing it, and then you pick your head up in three months and realize you haven’t been out selling. And, you know, it’s, you know, our kind of work doesn’t, you know, they can be long lead times to work with those large corporations. You’ve got to be talking to them regularly.

Yes. And it’s hard to scale because you need to bring in people who fit into your culture, who actually learn what you do, which is complex. So it takes time and and it’s you cannot blow it up overnight. You need to gradually build it and you need to all the time have work for those people. And that’s a tricky proposition.

That’s right. But I think you really hit on something really important, which is you’ve got to have the kind of people that are going to operate in the way that you want folks in the company to operate. You know, early on I worked with an executive coach as we were sort of getting ready to officially launch the company and he said, you know, you should come up with your set of core values for the company. And I said, that sounds like a worthwhile thing. That’s a nice thing to have and to think about.

Very quickly after launch, it became incredibly evident that that was the most important thing that we did was come up with those set of, we have four core values. And people who live up to those four things, they do really well here and they’re really successful at Delve. People that don’t, it’s not gonna be the right fit. And so finding the right people that fit that mold and understanding what does that mold look like, hugely important.

It’s so interesting that you talk about this. Obviously, I totally agree. It’s very important that you identify the core values and you socialize it and you attract the right people who leave those core values, who resonate with it. And I’ve been teaching companies this for many years. And just last week, I had a guest on this podcast, Marc Reklau, who is an author. And one of the books that he writes self-help books. And one of the books he written, I started reading over the weekend, it’s like 30 days. And it talks about your personal core values.

And it says that you have to identify your four personal core values. And it says, hmm, so I know my company’s core values and I’m a one person company, but then I thought maybe my personal core values are actually slightly different because it’s not about growing the business. And I came up with my four core values and it really made me think, and I shot off a note to Mark that, hey Mark, these are mine. I wonder what yours are. And he just responded to me this morning. He said, actually, I haven’t looked at this since I wrote this book in 2014.

You got to drink your own champagne.

I know. So that’s really interesting. So even the shoemakers walk bare feet a lot of the time. So it’s really important, really important. Okay, I love this. So Pat Lencioni is definitely really the greatest one. I agree in the realm of motivating people, building great teams and building great cultures. So let’s switch gears here. Now let’s talk a little bit about Delve. And you talk about managing political and reputational risks. And in the abstract, that’s very obvious. But think about it specifically. So what kind of things can arise for a company that can create these kind of political and reputational risks? Can you give me a couple of examples?

So for most of our clients are in heavily regulated or highly scrutinized industries. So you’re talking about folks that are dealing with life or death, right? So, folks like pharmaceutical and life sciences, energy and infrastructure development firms, financial services and investment firms. Just take energy, for example. If you’re a traditional energy company, everybody wants to know, what are you doing to do your work in the most sustainable and environmentally responsible way? How are you reducing emissions? How are you navigating the energy transition?

How are you being a good steward and neighbor of the communities that you operate in? And that’s something you could ask of a lot of, of almost any kind of company that’s gonna have a footprint in a community. What are you doing to be a good steward or neighbor? And unfortunately these days, that’s not enough because there are larger political and social issues.

And today, CEOs, other business leaders are the most trusted and respected leaders of institutions in our society, which means they’re getting looked at as the cultural leaders to really tell us the direction. The politicians, right? But then nobody can agree on which half. So they’re kind of out the door, you know, other religious institutions, other things have had scandals and other issues. So CEOs in a lot of ways are the folks that people are looking to, to help lead society to better place. And if your company is not supporting that, there’s going to be inherent risks in that.

So that’s why you’re seeing a lot of companies talk about what’s our purpose, being mission driven. Now all those things are great, but you can’t just talk about it, right? Core values is a great, if you go back to the core values, you know, Enron, which went down in a fire of accounting scandals, one of their core values was integrity, right? You know, so it’s not, you can’t just put it on the wall and say, we stand for integrity. It’s gotta be the expected behaviors of the company and how you operate that is consistent with how you talk about who you are and what you are and how you contribute to society.

Companies must move beyond merely talking about purpose and being mission-driven; it's about expected behaviors consistent with societal contributions. Share on X

And so that’s where you find that intersection of political and reputational risks a lot is how do companies talk and how do they operate versus what are the expectations from the communities that they operate. And also, sometimes you can do everything right, but policymakers have their own agendas. Activists have their own agendas. If they can use you as an example to further their agenda, they’re going to do it, whether it’s fair to you or not. And so you’ve got to be ready for it.

So, when you’re talking about managing this risk, then is it about being a good corporate citizen? So you manage the risk by actually improving your behavior or you manage the risk by, I don’t know, managing the environment so that your bad behavior doesn’t become apparent or you can communicate it in a more positive light.

So being a good corporate steward is the table stakes today. It’s not, and it used to be enough, that used to be the expectation. That’s just the prices of entry now to being able to operate and have what we like to talk about, a lot of folks are in business talking about is that social permission to operate, right? So there’s gonna be formal permitting processes and regulatory expectations, but there’s also, what does the community expect from you? What do your neighbors expect from you? What does society expect from you? And that’s a different level.

You’ve got to be meeting that, but it’s not enough today because sometimes you can be doing all of that right, but it’s not enough. You have to talk about it and engage with those stakeholders. You’ve got to talk about what you’re doing and why it’s right. And you also have to defend your interests. There’s a lot of companies say that are under a lot of scrutiny that isn’t entirely fair. Look at what happens just with some of the companies that are helping build out the vaccine production and distribution.

You know, this is one of the largest scale-ups in the history of manufacturing. That’s not gonna, that’s never going to be done perfectly. But in today’s media, everything becomes nefarious. Nobody in the corporate world gets that benefit of the doubt. You’ve got to be out there proactively telling your story. You’ve got to be proactively knowing who are the important stakeholders to us, right? Why can a Nike put out a sneaker with Colin Kaepernick and get a lot of more conservative minded consumers upset while another firm can’t get away with that and continue to be successful and profitable? It’s because Nike knows who their important influencers, their important stakeholders are.

They know who are the consumers that we need to rely on and who are the consumers that actually provide our profit centers, right? They’re the people buying the $200 sneakers that think Colin Kaepernick is awesome and a great activist, not the people buying the $10 sweatpants in the bargain bin that don’t really care whether they have the Nike swoosh on them or not. So, they understand their stakeholders, they understand their consumers. You also need to understand who’s regulating you, who’s overseeing you. We saw this in Georgia with Delta.

Delta is based in Atlanta and they were very outspoken on the recently passed Georgia voting law. But that didn’t sit well with the state legislators who decide on their tax breaks and the business environment in which they operate. I think you’re going to see this increasingly as companies move to red states that have more friendly business regulatory environments and move away from places like California, New York, New Jersey, other places that are more heavily regulated.

They’re moving into places where the social politics may not be consistent with where their customers, their employees, other folks have expectations for how they’re gonna operate as a company. They’re gonna have to think through how do you wanna navigate that? Even as you’re working in your own community as a business leader, you have to think about how am I representing myself, my family, the company in this community? And how are our employees operating in treating people in the community? Because that can be a big source of potential risk for you.

If you’re not operating in a responsible manner, that’s going to get out. If you’re not being truthful about how you operate, that’s going to get out. You need to understand some of those vulnerabilities. You also have to understand the other interests that are at stake. Sometimes it’s competing industries that are making arguments through different stakeholders about what is the best way to power our future? What is the best way to develop this land or not develop this land? What kind of products should we be selling? What kind of standards should they meet? All of these things have both a formal regulatory environment as well as a social regulatory environment of the expectations of the society and the community.

If you're not being truthful about how you operate, that's going to get out. You need to understand some of those vulnerabilities. You also have to understand the other interests that are at stake. Share on X

That’s fascinating. So what can you do to help them? Is it just about communication, or is it also about substantive changes? Is it strategy changes as well? Is it about shaping the narrative? How does that work? So how do you do that? How do you change the perception? Let’s say Nike wants to promote this shoe with Copernicus, who is a controversial figure for certain parts of the society. Do you just ignore those people or do you actually maybe position that thing as something that is not divisive?

Sure. So, the answer is you’ve got to make sure that you have the information you need to make smart decisions before you have to make them. Because in this day and age, you might not have much time to respond. You might not know when a crisis is going to hit. You might not know when there’s going to be a viral moment that all of a sudden your social media is exploding and you’ve got to respond. So, before that happens, you need to know what are our vulnerabilities. No business model is perfect. No business operation is perfect.

People have histories and backgrounds. What are those? Make sure that you know what those are and you’re ready to make your case on why you’re doing things a certain way and why that’s appropriate, or if they’re not, how you’re going to make it right. Figuring out the answers to these questions ahead of time is important. But also knowing, know who your stakeholders are. You know, who are your important consumers? Who are your important employees? Who are the policy makers that make decisions about how you can operate?

What kind of regulations are you living under? You know, what are the political issues that you might have to get drawn in on in a community? Who are the different community stakeholders you want to work with? What if you’re saying you have a particular mission or purpose as a company, how are you living up to it? Making sure that you’ve got all of this understanding lets you then make better decisions when it comes time to go to market with the new product, right?

You know, if you’re positioning yourself as the sustainable X company within a certain industry, you better be ready to talk about how you and your supply chain and your retail and everything else are in fact sustainable. Because if you’re not, somebody is going to figure that out and they’re going to start exposing it. And you’re going to have to, you’re going to have explaining to do.

That’s definitely, keeping companies honest, they cannot say something and do another thing, it gets exposed, which I guess is a good thing, ultimately. So one thing that has struck me reading your website is that you’re not just kind of surveying the field and giving the real-time alerts that something is happening, but you actually synthesize that into themes and trends, and you actually interpret it and you help explain the context in the bigger picture of what these things mean. Can you give me an example of when you did that and when it really kind of changed the perception or allowed your client to see the big picture and the forest for trees?

You know, it’s so important because in this day and age, you know, nobody’s wanting for information, right? Everything’s a Google search away.Not, you know, not everything, but a lot.You know, there’s still a lot of information that’s hard to find. But collection is not the hard part. Collecting information, it’s analysis. That’s the hard part. And we find, you know, the public affairs, government relations, corporate communications professionals we work with, the general counsels, those tend to be who we work with, they don’t have the time of the day to sit and marinate with all that data and make sense of it.

And sense making is so important to being able to then make it actionable because, you know, it’s not just here’s a pile of information. It’s really, what does this mean? And what kind of action do I take from it? So when we’re doing a vulnerability study of helping a company understand what are its vulnerabilities, we may not be telling them things they don’t know, but they may not have realized that if you take this information, it can be shaped into this narrative that is not as complimentary as you would think about for yourself.

Now, it may leave out half the story and not be fair and all these other things, but having vulnerabilities that exist, they’re gonna float out there until there’s an inciting incident. And then once something happens, that viral moment, people start to dig in more. They start to look at this company and be like, actually, this company, this isn’t the first time they’ve had a truck spill over. They actually have a long history of safety issues with their delivery drivers.

Or, you know what, of course, they’ve treated that customer that way. Look at their board. They don’t have a single person of color. They don’t have a single woman. Of course, they aren’t sensitive to some of these cultural issues. So, you want to… some of these things like, well, look, we’ve had the same board for 10 years, nobody ever complained about it, right? But once there’s that incident, and that’s what we’re trying to help people get ahead of, is what can you do to be ahead of those vulnerabilities, address and take action on them before they become a problem? Because it’s a lot easier to do crisis preparation and prevention than it is to do crisis mitigation.

Once you’ve got 10,000 people out there in front of your production facility with signs and demanding justice, there’s only so much we can do for you. That reputational damage is going to live on for a long time and it’s going to impact future actions with that community, with other stakeholders, with policymakers, with the court system, with the media. Right. So you can’t you can’t undo reputational damage. You can mitigate it. You can try and make it better. You can show how you’ve improved or address those. But that’s a long healing process. The ideal state is to never get them.

So, is there a short list of top vulnerabilities that the company would have or is it an infinite way of being exposed? And essentially, if that is the case, then how do you prepare for all those unforeseen contingencies? Is it even possible?

So it’s constantly evolving, right? In today’s day and age, the first thing that I’m going to look at if we’re engaged in a company to help them assess vulnerabilities, what do you say your purpose and your mission is? How purpose and mission driven are you? Because that’s the first lens that consumers and policy makers and everybody are going to evaluate it. How do you live up to the standards you’re setting and how are you reaching that and living that mission and purpose? Then there’s some standards that our society is setting right now that are continuing to evolve.

So there’s diversity, equity, and inclusion. How are you engaging in that? In meaningful ways, right? It’s not enough. I remember for years we’ve seen, you know, like not to pick on them, but you have venture capital and investment funds, you know, announcing, oh, we’re gonna put, we put together a $10 million fund for women-owned startups. And I’m like, that sounds cool, 10 million, but actually you’re spending billions of dollars on investments. That’s a drop in the bucket. That’s a press release. That’s not a meaningful amount.

People are starting to get catch on to that. You better be making real investments to back what you’re saying you’re doing about diversity and inclusion and equity. You know, what does your workforce look like? And how are you moving it to be more diverse? How are you making sure it’s inclusive? Not on the surface, but at that core value level. ESG is another big area, environmental sustainability and governance. How do you operate as a company and how do you engage not just shareholders, but all of your stakeholders?

How are you treating the environment? How are you ensuring that the company, how you operate as a company is sustainable? That’s why you’re seeing a lot of companies move towards more sustainable components. I also think it’s a double-edged sword because a lot of the scrutiny is a zero-sum game. It’s you cannot have any of these things, but there’s always a second, it’s not like companies decide to use plastic because they just don’t care about the earth. They use plastic because in a lot of cases it’s the safest, most responsible way to do that packaging or to produce that kind of a product for use in medical environments or other things.

So, there’s going to be a trade-off, even if you look at, if you’re trying to say we’re going to be more environmentally sound by switching our whole truck fleet to electric vehicles. Well, there’s a whole supply chain of electric vehicles that are problematic too. Those batteries and the rare earth minerals and all the other parts that you have to mine to get to an electric vehicle and the lifespan of the electric vehicle and the battery versus an internal combustion engine, all these other factors.

So in a lot of ways, companies are at this disadvantage because they have to live in the real world of trade-offs and imperfection. And activists and those engaging in media and other folks engaging in the scrutiny can live in that theoretical world where everything should be perfect and carry no risk or impacts.Right.So sometimes that’s why we talk about mitigation, because sometimes you have to just be prepared for some of these criticisms and ready to answer them and explain them. But it really makes sense to operate that way and it’s responsible.

Yes. So we don’t live in a perfect world. Nevertheless, I’m really inspired when I hear certain companies committing to becoming carbon neutral and not producing any waste. I think this is huge. If if these companies stick to it and others are forced to follow them, then it could make a real, real difference. So on another topic, and maybe this is this is the wrong question. So I’m I think guilty of asking stupid questions. But are there any ethical boundaries for for messaging on certain issues. So what is the best practice to resist pressures from clients to spread distorted misinformation or misleading information?

That’s a great question, actually, and it’s an important one. You know, our first client, one of our first clients out of the gate was a very, very large energy company that was going through a crisis. And there are a lot of ways to approach things like that. This company made the right choice, our guidance from others. They screwed up and everything that they did after this group was about telling the story of how they were going to make it right and they weren’t going to leave that area until it was entirely fixed. And they were apologetic.

They weren’t, that wasn’t trying to obfuscate. It wasn’t trying to manipulate. It wasn’t trying to convince people that what they were seeing wasn’t real. First of all, even if you don’t have a, sorry, I lost my train of thought, but, you know, I think, you know, when you’re thinking about whether to engage in misinformation or not, you know, companies that come to us and want to do that are coming to the wrong place. For us, it goes back to sort of our core purpose as a company. Our core purpose as a company is to leverage objective truth and facts to make the case for our clients.

So if you want us to obfuscate that, you’ve come to the wrong place and we’re not going to get along very well and you’re not going to like what we say in our reports. Because everything we say in our reports is citable, independently verifiable fact. So if you don’t have the facts on your side, you’re not gonna like the report you get from us. It’s also, even if you don’t have that moral compass as a company, the reality is it’s gonna get out, as we talked about earlier. Somebody is gonna figure out the truth. The facts are, this applies to political campaign ads too.

You know, the ads that work are ads that are based in facts and truth. Because voters, consumers are the same. They can tell when the facts are back and something up and when they aren’t. And I think a lot of times you get lost in this debate about what is misinformation, what is disinformation, stopping it, spreading everything. But I think daylight is the best disinfectant. And the facts come out and you can either get ahead of them, understand those facts and put them out in on your timeline or they can come out on somebody else’s timeline that isn’t necessarily going to put you in the best light.

Yes, well I’d like to believe in what you’re believing because I’m an idealist as well and I’d like to believe that really the facts always win in the end. What about perceptions? Is it possible, for example, to represent different sides of a story, maybe different times, obviously, if they are sitting at the same table, you can’t do that, that’s an obvious conflict, but is it possible for you to, as a firm, to believe one side and then to believe the other side or to promote help one side to get their version of the truth and another side on the same, maybe a Democratic and a Republican side to the same similar issue, or you have to take a side. How does that work?

Sure. I think any good firm, we do a lot of work on for companies and industries. And oftentimes, there’s not a side that’s right. Right, you know, if you have, you know, the banks and credit unions fighting over, you know, the size of loans that credit unions can give to small business and where that limit should be versus when it really ought to be within a bank’s realm versus a credit union, you know, nobody’s right. Right, there isn’t a moral truth to that issue.

There’s policy trade-offs and a complicated set of interests. So, it’s not, you can marshal facts that provide evidence and build a case for either side in a debate like that. Or, for example, we do a lot of work in the energy industry, and some people are surprised to learn that we work with both traditional fossil fuel producers and power generators, as well as a lot of renewable developers. And people are like, how can you be on both sides of that issue? And I said, we’re on the same side. Both are trying to generate energy to power homes, businesses, and society. They just have different views on how we get there.

And the reality is we probably need both of them. And so, what’s interesting is a lot of them are facing a lot of the same challenges in today’s environment, which is, I don’t care what kind of large infrastructure project you’re trying to build, it’s going to be challenging. There’s multiple levels of permitting across multiple jurisdictions. There’s a wider range of stakeholders. There’s more scrutiny. It takes longer to get it built. It’s much harder to get it financed. You can run down this list. And that’s true, whether it’s a natural gas plant or a solar wind farm.

I mean, I definitely can see it, and there’s no objective truth anyway. And I guess it’s probably an internal compass that every one of your partners executives have to follow to make sure that they are in integrity with what what they represent. This is very interesting stuff. If our listeners would like to learn more, where should they go? How can they connect with you? Or how can they learn more about your firm, Delve LLC and what you guys are doing?

Yeah, so come to the website, delvedc.com, D-E-L-V-E-D-C.com. Sign up for our email newsletter. We put out some insights on what we’re seeing with trends and challenges facing companies and public – their public affairs interests every two weeks, as well as if you’re in the energy industry we also have a trends report that we put out for those building energy infrastructure and another trends report focused on pharmaceutical and life sciences. Those are two of our big practices, I think, you know, we tend to work with, you know, big companies in these regulated environments that have to know how to know what’s happening and how they navigate it.

Okay, that’s great. So, Delve DC is the website and is it the trench report?

Yeah, we so our newsletter is called TLDR. Too long didn’t read because, you know, we, we read through all the all of what’s happening and synthesize it into something and hopefully folks can can read quickly.

Yeah, and it’s available through the website right.

People can go website sign up right there. If you can’t find it, I’m going to fire our web designer.

Alright, and you’re LinkedIn as well, so they can reach out to Jeff Berkowitz as well, to you on LinkedIn. So, thank you very much for coming on the show, Jeff. It’s been a really interesting conversation and thanks for being open and vulnerable about the sensitive topic. And to our listeners, I hope you enjoyed it. If so, please don’t forget to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or subscribe to us on YouTube. And stay tuned because next week I’m gonna come with another exciting entrepreneur and you can learn about the management blueprints that they use. So, thanks again Jeff and have a great day.

Thanks for having me.


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