46: Make your CEO Famous with Jon Tsourakis

Jon Tsourakis is the President and Chief Revenue Officer at Oyova, a national marketing and application development agency. He is also the founder and president of Central Comp, an ancillary services provider helping TPAs and self-insured employers offer the best care at the best price. We talk about digital marketing strategies, personalizing marketing campaigns, and consistently creating value for your customers.

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Make your CEO Famous with Jon Tsourakis

Our guest is Jon Tsourakis, the President and Chief Revenue Officer of  Oyova Software that helps integrate marketing and technology to create efficiencies and growth for companies across North America. He is also the founder and president of CentralComp, a provider of ancillary healthcare products such as hearing aids, prosthetics, home healthcare equipment, etc. They also help customers navigate the claims process. So, welcome to the show, John.

Thank you so much for having me, Steve. It’s a pleasure to be here, man.

It’s exciting to have you. So, you have been kind of a serial entrepreneur, may I call you? I mean, you certainly have, seems to have founded multiple businesses. You merged one of them with a bigger one, which you run, you have another business. So tell us a little bit about your journey, entrepreneur journey, how did you get here?

I always knew when I was a kid that I wanted to own a business. I don’t have one of those stories where like I went door to door selling things. I had a family business working with my father. And so I learned some things from him, but then he fired me, which kind of put me into a different growth trajectory, needless to say. And I was going to school with some other entrepreneurs. It was a son and his father, they started a marketing company and then they offered me a job. And I worked for them for a little bit. It got really corporate. And I decided that, hey, this is my time to start. It was the worst time. It was in the pit of the recession in 2008, 2009. But since then, things have tended to go alright, but I’ve learned a lot of lessons along the way.

Okay, and then you built this company and you merged it. So how did this merger go? Was this a really tough thing to do? A challenging transaction, emotionally, financially? Can you tell me a little bit about that?

So when I first started my company, I had a business partner, we ended up having a falling out and I was like, okay, cool, this is, I’m gonna do everything on my own now. And people would say the things, the worst ships are partnerships and I would tend to agree with some of those at the time, but then I realized doing some personal development myself, maybe I could have done better in that relationship. So I joined a mastermind group, a peer group, which now I think we run, and I learned a lot in that group.

What I also learned is that I could have a business partner, and that’s who I met in that group. So we stayed in contact over some time, and in 2018, the economy was going so well, it seemed like it was a good time to merge. So we decided to do that. But to answer some of the specifics in your question, emotionally, yeah, you’re changing things. You’re now going to be a part of another company. You’re divesting the name of another brand and then moving it in.

So some things will play with your egos there. Finances, for sure, you wanna make sure that you’re taken care of. And maybe there are some processes and some things before based on the way that you did things with money that aren’t either kosher based on the person that you’re working with, or it’s just not a good way to manage money with another person. So for sure, a lot of those things you’re confronted with during that time.

Building something is like raising a baby; you invest emotionally, but eventually, you have to let go of control. Share on X

I definitely have the same experience. It’s an emotionally charged thing and you build something which is your baby and then you have to let go of the control or you decide to let go of the control and someone else is taking the shots and all you can do is agree or disagree, but it doesn’t really matter. Now, you’re still president of this new company. So it’s kind of different because you are still in there and you’re making decisions.

So we’ll talk about this a little bit later, but what I’d like to first ask you is, this podcast is called the Management Blueprint. And I’m always looking for business frameworks, management blueprints that people have studied and used in their business. So is there something that comes to mind that you kind of picked up along the way and implemented for your businesses?

So I don’t follow it to a T, but I read the books and I’ve seen some of the speakers and I know a lot of people have done it. It’s EOS, the Entrepreneurial Operating System. So I treat that to somewhat like a buffet. My business partner and I do, we’re like, oh yeah, we’ll use this, we’ll use this. But we don’t do it in the purest form, which some have and they’ve had great success. Also studied Vern Harnish, some of those things, tried to implement with my previous agency. Those seemed a little bit too strict in some ways. And studied a myriad of books over the years, ranging from management books to selling services books to strategy books and try to implement whatever I can. And even also throwing in some of the Simon Sinek, everything from Infinite Game to Start With Why type of stuff as well.

This is great. So these are exactly the kind of thing I was thinking about EOS, the scaling up. Yes, Simon Sinek and these kind of concepts that can help you really drive your business forward. So you mentioned that you kind of took a la carte approach to EOS. So what are the concepts that you really like out of EOS that you picked up and you’re still using and what is it that you didn’t like?

You know, it’s funny, over the years, I don’t know which we’re using that I can dedicate to each. So forgive me if I make some overlaps.

It’s okay, there are some overlaps.

So definitely the emphasis in core values. I think any of those books are going to speak to those aligning core values with the people that you have on your team. That is something that that’s paramount. Also getting an understanding of what they want versus what the company’s objectives are and how you align those, which is somewhat into the core value space. The people analyzer, which I’m very confident is on the EOS is a Is an effective tool.

The meetings, that’s one thing that I do recommend having a meeting format, having a standard meeting every at a specific time and a specific day of the week and Making sure that it ends, you know at that time I think that’s also very effective. As far as some of the others, just the emphasis on processes and systems. If you’re not documenting those and you’re not managing from processes because you can’t manage people, you’re not going to have an effective business and you’re not going to have a very sellable business if you don’t have a framework for your business in the way that you do it. So I think those are the things top of mind that jump out at me and I’m sure there’s a bunch of others in the nuance as well.

Core values alignment with the team is paramount. Understanding the team's goals and aligning them with company objectives is crucial. Share on X

These are really important. That’s great. So core values and processes and people analyze and make sure you’ve got the right people in the right seats. So let’s switch the topic here. So your expertise is helping companies grow really fast. So what does that look like and what is happening? I mean, this landscape seems to be shifting all the time. What are the top companies doing these days to grow?

They’re knowing where their customers are at and they’re making sure that they get the content necessary in those places. Right. And this is something that’s age old, but people forget this all the time when they come to us. And it surprises me. So if your customers are moving from Facebook to another platform, then you need to actively move from that other, whereas creating the rapidity in growth, it’s listening to them very intently and being able to respond and respond in, okay, this is new information that everybody needs.

We’re seeing 60% of these people asking for this. Okay, we’ll make sure that you’re applying that to your website and what’s your context for conversions. The other side, I would say, is leveraging reviews. I don’t see enough companies leveraging the power of reviews based on the way that people shop online. So that’s something that we can actively build a review program, leverage those reviews, push those reviews in the places for content.

It’s the old testimonials, but these are more effective because you can’t really BS them so much by just putting somebody’s name. The anonymity of it is removed. It’s a real person. So those are some of the things that I think are very effective for companies if they want to grow rapidly, just really focusing on those simple tenants.

Testimonials are powerful, especially when they are authentic and real. Leveraging reviews removes anonymity and adds credibility to the feedback. Share on X

Okay, so basically getting the content to where the customers are and if they’re shifting to Instagram or TikTok, then you have to shift with them, right?

Shift with them and make sure that yeah, you have the message necessary and you’re continually listening to them. One of the things we tell people is if you don’t have an audience. And if you do have an audience, there is a feedback loop. They are saying something. Are you listening to what they’re saying? And then when you have an inputs, of course things are going to change. So it’s this very malleable thing that continues to move if you behave with it properly.

And you have to be very flexible, which I think comes into some other things, right? So you have companies that are so tactical that they can’t move the ball forward far enough, right? They can just, all right, they can just do this little thing, but they’re never going to see the big growth. Then you have other companies that are so heavily strategic on the long term that they are like a giant battleship and they’re inflexible to move.

So you have to be very flexible in the short term and understand what the long-term vision is. And I think that’s one of the most powerful things that the internet has provided to companies, that ability to do that, to get a quick, fast response from your audience by speaking with them via social media, being the biggest driver.

So it’s fascinating to see that even celebrity entrepreneurs like Elon Musk, he is regularly on social media and he is communicating to his market. Is this, I mean, obviously that seems to be sustainable, but I mean, I’m still kind of wondering how can people run a business and be available 24-7 at the same time on social media to interact with the audience? It doesn’t seem like a scalable model, but obviously it is. Maybe you have to remove yourself from the business and just do that. How do you look at that?

In a similar approach, but I think Elon Musk is a freak of nature. So if he is doing his social media all day long, God bless him. He can do that. I think he’s in a different league than most of us. I think it’s not sustainable. It’s not scalable. And I think most of the people that I’ve met that are really good on one-on-one with people are terrible at social media because it’s a completely different dynamic. They’re used to really listening and really tuning in and connecting with the person they’re speaking with, not just pumping out massive amounts of content. So I believe you have to have a team in place. You have to have a structure and a format to go about it.

And you don’t have to do it 24 seven. There’s others that can be helping you listen and help you produce that content if you really want to take it to the next level. I do not recommend being on social media 24-7. I don’t think that’s psychologically healthy. And I don’t even think it’s sustainable. Elon Musk, the guy’s brilliant, he’s done a lot of great things, but is he going to say something that’s going to cause him to flame out, alienate, and get canceled? Like how close is he to that if he keeps at the same level of frequency and intensity that he’s at? It’s, I don’t know, only time will tell.

Maybe there are people who can do that, but they are the exceptions, not something that you can systemize on or take it as kind of an example to follow for our mere mortals. Okay, so basically flexibility, so be strategic and tactical at the same time, be flexible, I get that. So let’s talk more about sales. What are the best sales techniques for 2021? Is it kind of amalgamated with marketing? I mean, tell me a little bit about what’s trending in sales.

As far as sales is concerned, I think some of the best techniques that people aren’t taking advantage of is just data in general, right? So the amount of data that you can get based on your audience and the person that you want to speak to is incredible. It’s better now than it’s ever been. So people can stop wasting their time in this lazy approach, which is this mass spraying and this automation of just like, I’m just gonna send this message to everybody.

They can focus down in a hyper-personal way where they’re reaching out to a smaller audience, they’re spending more time connecting with people at a higher level, and they’re going to get a higher return from that information. Also, if they’re listening, and you’re going to hear that as we continually say that, take the information that’s being given to you and continually shape that. Not necessarily just on a one-on-one. You can have a larger data set. But that is something that I think is not happening.

And going into that, also the other technique, which is hyper-personalization. You have a smaller audience. If you’re from Hungary, I could have a comment based on that, seeing it on your profile or something in my message to reach out to you so I can actually show that I’m interested in you to connect to you. Just saying, hey, this is my service, this is what we do. Individuals are very smart and we begin to realize patterns and all those other things are not going to work long term. What will work long term is the ability to have one human to another human connecting on a personal level.

So there’s no, there’s less and less scope for faking it, which is a good thing, right?

Absolutely. It’s genuine, it’s authentic, it’s real, and that’s what we want as human beings. We don’t want somebody just sending their new age direct mail piece into our inbox and just hoping that the timing is right. We really want to connect with someone and build a relationship and have a network of people that can interact with us, whether it’s referring business one way or both ways, or helping us get business in another way.

That’s interesting. So how does marketing kind of fits into it? What’s the future of marketing look like?

So the future of marketing is going to be a ton of influencers, right? So micro-influencers as well. So that social media piece, the reviews and the testimony was kind of going into that. All these things are tenants that have always existed, but we’re now seeing them in a different paradigm. So you’ll see, you know, even B2B start to bleed over there where you’re going to see more emphasis of influencers pushing products. And then of course the marketization of those individuals. Also AI, AI is going to be a big player here.

Right now, Google’s already finishing our emails, right? You’re typing it out. Oh, okay. Yeah, that’s actually what I was going to say. That’s kind of interesting. All right. So take that on a mass scale. And of course, that’s going to be video, that’s going to be social media messages, it’s going to be content. And of course, we would be naive to think that that’s not going to even be a strategic plan. So we’re beginning to see this incrementally get there. And of course, there’s products that are already doing a lot of the things that I just said.

So if you find yourself as an innovator and you want to go for that bleeding edge technology, you can do that even today. So that’s what the future holds, which is interesting because the other comment I just said is on the hyper-personalization. So how can those marketing tools take that hyper-personalization, take that data, and then craft something to someone individually? Is it going to be a conversation between two computers? But that’s essentially where the future is going.

And isn’t it like an arm race that the more you personalize, the more people erect their filters and try to get through what’s personalized robotic message and what’s a real message and kind of reading through the lines and being more and more nuanced about that? Isn’t this happening already?

To a point, absolutely. Yeah. And it’s just going to take that real genuine gut feeling message that’s going to have somebody respond to it. And what that is, I would be remiss to say I knew. I don’t. So yeah, it absolutely is an arms race.

That’s very interesting. So I wonder what it’s going to look like. So what about team, growing teams? So let’s talk a little bit about people. We talked about technology, which is fine, but ultimately every company is made up of people and they have to deliver the goods and they have to work together because of the complexity. No one can see all the pieces of the puzzle. So what are the top leaders doing today to build and foster their teams?

Spending really productive time with them on a personal level. And what I mean by that is taking the time to understand where they’re at in a one-on-one, talking about, yes, feelings, and it’s not like necessarily getting mushy. It’s not like saying, okay, hey, we’re friends, we’re family. It’s just being real and understanding where they’re at with their position, where they’re at in their life, how they feel, and where things are going, and being transparent about where the company is headed.

And if the company is not doing well, it’s not necessarily to say like, oh, it’s doom and gloom and failure because you would be a weak leader in doing that. It’s making sure that you’re providing a vision and a path so they understand how they can help and collaborate. So summing that up, I would say is spending a lot of time with them. The, the other is what I mentioned earlier is that the values, so having conversation about the values, making sure that their core values are in concert with the company’s core values.

So I would say this is what I’m witnessing a lot of the top leaders doing and just being really genuine, being authentic and of course, kindness and compassion. And when you have those types of traits, people feel very comfortable, people feel bonded. And when they feel bonded, it’s incredible what a group of people can do.

So basically what you do is you are listening to your customers, you’re listening to your people, you are trying to figure out what your customer wants, you’re constantly communicating with responding to them. You do the same with your people, it sounds like.

It is. These are basic. Absolutely. If you execute the basics flawlessly, you somehow become an expert.

Listening to both customers and team members, and executing the basics flawlessly, forms the foundation of effective leadership. Share on X

That’s right. So it’s all about listening, communicating. So what about the sales process? So if everything is personalized and everything has to be authentic, then how do you scale that? So let’s talk about the sales process. What kind of sales processes still work in 2021 for companies?

So is the question, how do we scale the sales process or is the sales question of what’s working in 2021 or was it both?

What’s working and how it can be scaled. What does it look like? I mean, the sales process, we all knew that it was cold calling and trying to get the meeting and then trying to use the closing techniques in the meeting to close people, get them the proposal, negotiate. How does that change in today’s age when it’s all a buyer-driven process and it’s not about outreach, it’s about attraction. I’m just guessing, I mean, you’re the expert.

I appreciate you framing the question. Yeah, so if I said to say, what do sales look like in 2020, if somebody is picking up the phone cold calling, God bless them, I think that’s awesome. If they’re getting results, great, good for you. All data would say that that’s not the best way to go about it because it’s just an absolutely brutal and hard process. And nobody’s really answering their phones anyway with the diminishment of landlines and mobile phone numbers now blocking a call that is unknown or a spam call, you know, really high.

And if anybody’s a robo-caller out there, you’re just destroying whatever’s left for those people that are able to make phone calls anyway. But as far as what I see in 2021, LinkedIn is a fantastic way to have a hyper personal conversation with somebody and LinkedIn is now getting rid of a lot of those automated workflow based tools that are not personal, that are just doing the spray and pray method, which is kind of like spamming, spamming, if you will. So I think that’s something that could be effective.

So if I were to give advice on how to break this up to somebody, I’d say, have somebody that’s doing the hyper outreach for you, that’s building these personal relationships. That would be, you know, maybe an underling on the sales team, which we will call a hunter. And then you have the closer on the top end where it’s a team selling approach, where those two people would be working together. One of them is curating and forming the relationships, handing them over to the closer.

They’re still involved in the deal, but once it’s handed over, the person’s focus is to close that deal. That is something that you can scale. If you have a process that follows a band method, budget, authority, need, timing, something that’s really specific on how we do it, how it works through our process, how we quote, that is something that you can definitely scale in 2021, being hyper-personal and using the data necessary to connect with the people that you should connect in.

And then those underlings, would they be using their CEO’s LinkedIn account to reach out, or they would be using their own LinkedIn accounts?

I think they should use their own. Yeah, they should use their own. Now, granted, it would be more effective if it’s just not a good way to go about it. So I don’t recommend that. So I think just be straight up, be upfront. If the person is a business development rep or whatever their title is, or you want to come up with ninja or, you know, add something cool to it, go for it. But yeah, I break up those roles and just make sure that it’s as genuine as possible the entire way through.

Okay, So, I’m trying to put together a picture. So you are listening to your audience, you are on social media, responding to them, hyper-personalizing. Then you have people reaching out to real people through their LinkedIn profile. So you know actually who you are talking to and customizing the message, trying to get a meeting, and then the meeting will be closed by the authoritative person, the CEO, whoever is a peer to the customer, and the team is basically helping out so that they only have to do what only they can do, and everyone else is contributing the presentations, the proposal, the research. Is this how it works?

To some extent, yes. Yeah. Like, let’s say that you’re in the B2B space, you can focus the social media, quote unquote, and of course, all the outreach, all that can be done on LinkedIn, right? So you don’t have to go on TikTok and some of the others. And if you want to, that’s fine. But I say, if you’re going to really focus all your efforts, just stick with one platform, if that’s where your audience is. There’s no reason to just be hopeful. That’s not a good strategy that they’re going to come. Granted, some people might find that effective. I never have.

So you can focus a lot of your energy there. And then as far as the ideas and whatnot, leverage your team for the content. As far as the listening, that’s also something that should be a corporate value that everybody should continually pass that information around so you know. So yeah, that was a good summation. And I would just wanted to add a little bit of nuance and some fine points to it.

So, in terms of platforms, what I have seen so far, and I’m not nearly an expert, is obviously LinkedIn works well, and then Facebook. So there are certain types of company owners or decision makers who are actually on Facebook, which surprises me, but sometimes they respond. I see, for example, a lot of contracting companies tend to be more Facebook, and then professional services, maybe more LinkedIn, in terms of small to medium-sized businesses. And then I also know that some people use Instagram. I know that Clubhouse is coming up. So what is your view? Are there other media that are coming up which are worth paying attention to?

I think they all are, depending on where your audience is. Reddit, for instance, is huge. If that’s where your audience is. It could be the neighborhood app, it could be patch, wherever your audience is, is where you should be. Don’t try to move them anywhere else other than your website, because that’s your control, where you essentially build your email list, so on and so forth. But yeah, you need to be where your audience is.

Okay. So, John, what would be your recommendation for someone who is the owner of a private business, maybe 10 to 500 employees, and they really want to grow their company, and they are bombarded with all sorts of options, it’s kind of overwhelmed, I don’t know what they do, they feel paralyzed, what would you, and they come to you for advice, so they would trust what you tell them, what would you recommend that they do from the ground up? Let’s say they are a professional service firm, they are consulting firm, and they want to get more B2B customers. What would be your suggestion?

We always look at where they’re marketing now, it’s been effective, right? Because past experience predicts, you know, future outcomes in a lot of ways. So that’s something we do. Essentially, we would start with a discovery, right? We want to understand, you know, who their customers are, their clients, and get a really good idea of, you know, who they are, so core values and whatnot. So that’s what they should do. Really understand who their customers are, where are their customers, and understand their message, right? What makes them different.

A great exercise is going back to the cold call. If you have a message that is so compelling that you could make cold calls and close somebody with those calls or get them interested, chances are you have a very good message and you have a very sellable product. So that is something that you should be excited about. If they have 10 to 500 employees, it’s a pretty wide swath. And there’s a lot of different growth stages based on where somebody’s at in there.

But we’d want to look for somebody to make famous, right? Somebody that can be the authority or the influence of the company in the market. So in that person, it could be something that we’re doing now. I’m doing for my company where I’m on a podcast. I host a podcast where you’re a content creator and you’re creating content around the solutions that your business provides to attract them. So that is a path that we would tend to go down because at the end of the day, nobody buys anything specifically from a logo. They tend to buy from a person, right? Especially at the level that they’re at the 10 to 500.

So that is in, you know, where we would start. And of course, then we get into the budgets, figuring out, all right, how do we help communicate this message? What are the problems that we solve? Where are some of the areas that we need to push this content? What do the CTAs look like getting into the website design? So, but at the end of the day, that’s essentially where we would start and where it goes more often than not is a successful campaign and a happy client at the end of the day.

Okay. That’s really how you help me clarify things and have a better feel for what it is and doesn’t feel as overwhelming as before. 

Are you the 10 to 500?

I’m below that. I don’t have 9 employees at the moment, but I am working with companies in that range. So that’s why I asked you, because my clients tend to fall into that space. And I’m interested in what can help them grow faster.

So many things too. For instance, do you have like, what are the conferences out there, right? Can we get them speaking engagements at all those conferences? Are they having a booth at those conferences? What does the booth experience look like? Continually looking at things from the customer side, interviewing all the customers and clients, where are the watering holes? Where do they go? What do the journals look like? Getting all those feedback loops.

Are there clients that want to do videos where they want to talk about these things? Are there websites like G2, Clutch, so on and so forth, where we can get reviews and leverage those reviews and then also send out an email campaign where we’re drumming up more business where they haven’t done an effective email campaign. They’ve just sent out some lazy, boring newsletter. So yeah, also as far as the podcast, and can we get them on specific podcasts that their audience is going to listen to? What is the advertising going to do? Is the audience into more text ads versus image ads?

Do we have a demand generation problem where people don’t even realize they have this problem, so they’re not searching for it? So we need to push it in front of their face. Or are they searching for this problem? Then we need to go into more of an SEO campaign, which granted is going to be long-term, but we could sub-plant that with Google Ads. So there’s so many different directions and areas that we can go. It just depends on that data. But at the end of the day, we’ve done this for a long time. And when you work with really great people, nice people, kind people that offer a great product or service, it is not that difficult.

So, one of the things that I always was concerned about in the past before I kind of said, okay, what the hell, I’m going to do this anyway, was that this whole attraction marketing, this inbound marketing, you’re always concerned that it’s going to take too long and you won’t be able to find out whether it’s working or not working. Whereas I can always pick up the phone and I can call someone and there’s an immediate opportunity of perhaps getting something done. What do you tell people? What should they prepare for? What should their expectations be if they switch their, from the outreach to the attraction marketing? How it’s gonna work for them?

Great question to help paint that picture is we’ll ask people, say, okay, you only have a month’s left of money left. What are all the actions you would do to make sure that your company would stay in business? And it’s amazing what that question will provide. People are like, oh, I would do this. I would call everybody on my phone. I would do all these things and I would let every customer know that I need more business. Like, okay, how many of those things are you doing now? Well, we’re not doing any of those.

Okay, well, act as if that is going to happen and let’s start there, right? So that is one place that people can start. They can ask themselves that question. The other, as far as the inbound marketing, that was, it’s a phrase that was cooked up by the founders of HubSpot. The irony of all that is they were doing more outbound than anybody in the history of marketing automation services. So I don’t know what that tells you about them, but it was brilliant for them to come up with that name.

What I would say to somebody, whether they know that it’s working or not, I would give themselves a chance to find out. I would make sure that they are doing outbound supplemented with their inbound. No absolute is ever healthy in anything when it comes to sales and marketing. You can’t hitch everything to a wagon like that. All it grades in that basket is not a healthy way to go. So I would make sure that they’re continually experimenting along the road. But if you’re going to have an inbound campaign, your content shouldn’t just be created because you just want to attract people.

Your content should be created because it’s a conversation that would be had during the sales process. When you start it that way, no matter what, you have an asset of value that you can use during the sales process that who knows somebody may be looking for online on the marketing side and wow, it will be more effective, especially when you get some SEO and some search consultants involved where they can enhance it for not only, you know, search engines granted.

Everybody says, oh, we don’t do that as for readability. Okay, let’s be real. All right, that part is still happening. But as well as making sure that this is a piece of content that is used during the sales process. Is it something informative that you would send over? Is it something educational? Is it a question that somebody that asks? Any of those scenarios should also live on your website.

So essentially, what I’m hearing is that it’s all about thought leadership. You have to be a thought leader, you get to get the word out through communicating to your audience. And while you’re doing that, you are actually doing the R&D. So you’re educating your own sales force, you’re giving munition to your own sales force to talk about in those personal interactions. So, everyone is more energized because we feel confident because we have ideas that you’re sharing.

I think that’s one way to say it. I think another way to say it is help your customers and clients as best you can and provide as much education and then publish all that education. Right? And the publishing of that education can be on your website, it can be on any social media platform, it can be you speaking at an event. But at the end of the day, just help your audience, listen to them and produce as much information as you can that they find valuable.

I have to write it down.

You can record it.

I know. I’m recording it. So that’s really fascinating. I learned a lot in this conversation. So I’m really glad that I tuned in to have the sneak peek to listen to this podcast first person. So if people in the audience would like to reach out to learn more, to get to help them, where can they go? Where can they find you?

You can find my name, one of the only ones out there. So chances are you’re going to land on me. Jon Tsourakis T-S-O-U-R-A-K-I-S Search me, you can find me on LinkedIn, go ahead and connect, shoot me an email, jon@oyova.com or visit digitalmastermind.com. There’s a number of ways to find me. So essentially you can Google my name, reach out, love to have a conversation with you.

Well, I definitely do that. Jon can help you if you can afford him to skyrocket your business. And thanks, John, for coming on. I had really great fun with our conversation. And to our listeners, thank you for tuning in. If you enjoyed this episode, please visit Apple Podcasts and rate and review us and subscribe or wherever else you’re getting your podcasts. And until next week, stay healthy and safe and we’ll see you along with a great other entrepreneur next week. Thank you.

Steve, thanks so much for having me, man. I really appreciate it.


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