27: Spin Your Inbound Flywheel With Ethan Giffin

Ethan Giffin is the founder and CEO of Groove Commerce, an eCommerce and Inbound Marketing company. We discuss how businesses can break into the eCommerce space and why most companies grew substantially during the pandemic. 

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Spin Your Inbound Flywheel With Ethan Giffin

Our guest is Ethan Giffin, who is the founder and CEO of Groove Commerce, which is an e-commerce, e-marketing company, and it masters all the dynamic technologies going on behind the surface of that. And also, Ethan is listed on LinkedIn as an inbound marketing e-commerce evangelist. So, Ethan, welcome to the show, and tell us a little bit about what this means.

I thank you. And I’m appreciative to be here with you and just appreciative that we get to spend some time together. So we are a full service digital agency that focuses in the e-commerce space. So we basically design, build and grow e-commerce websites. So about half of what we do is designing and building. And that’s really the e-commerce evangelist. And then the other side is the inbound marketing, is kind of the SEO, the SEM, the social media, the marketing automation, all of those things. So that’s the other side. I probably should update that. I don’t want to sound like a bunch of hot air. You know, I didn’t, you know, so, but, yeah, that’s a good description.

No, I don’t, I don’t took it this way. I was more interested in the passion behind the statement, because if someone is an evangelist of something, it means that they really passionately into it and they believe in it. So, so, so why do you believe in e-commerce so much? Maybe it’s a really dumb question, but I asked it anyway.

Yeah, you know, I mean, like there’s no dumb question, but I think, you know, and we’ve seen across the last 12 months or so how how important e-commerce is the ability to buy goods remotely and by not having to go to a store or the ability to buy goods and go pick it up yourself to buy online Pick up in store. I think both of those things have really kind of You know at all levels of the country have really kind of dug themselves in, you know, over the course of the last 10, 12 months of the pandemic. I don’t think that e-commerce was ever going away, but I definitely think a segment of the population that was less interested in e-commerce out of necessity at this point has, has, has figured out how to leverage, how to leverage things. When my, my 73 year old mother’s asking me, hey, can you get me set up on this thing called Instacart and get my groceries delivered? You know, I think then, you know, we’re really kind of getting to the far reaches of, you know, of the spectrum of folks out there.

So how would you dumb it down? So talking about, you know, elderly parents, how would you dumb it down if my mother, who is 79 years old, if 28, I’m sorry. She came to you and asked you, what do you guys do? How would you explain to her?

I mean it depends, if your mother was a little bit more of a sailor, I might say we help people sell shit on the Internet. But really, it kind of it kind of boils it down. market companies sell their goods and services through their websites and are that we’re writing software and leveraging platforms in order to do that with our team. So and then on the other side, we’re leveraging kind of marketing technology to take that customer data, leverage it, and then basically get more eyeballs on their website. So are these two separate things or these are essentially the two sides of the same coin? But it’s it’s kind of two sides of the same court.

At least that’s that’s how we see it. So, you know, one of our our our three uniques, quite frankly, since we’re kind of talking EOS, is that we design, build and grow e-commerce websites. So customers will come to us asking us to help them grow their websites and then eventually we’ll kind of run out of steam with the current software they use and we might build them a new website or they might come to us and say, hey, I want you to take us off this software and move us to another software. And then after that project’s finished, it’s just a natural progression to work together on fixing their search optimization or, you know, other things that they’re working on.

So, what’s a good goal for someone who, let’s say, runs a $5 million company and they’ve been mainly brick and mortar and they want to go and have an e-commerce presence? What would be like a first year plan for a company? How far can you take them?

But that’s interesting. You know, we tend to, if we’re working with someone that hasn’t gone down that path before, we actually really set the expectation that the first year is a proof of concept. We, you know, anything can happen. And so we generally are, you know, if we don’t have good data about their industry or their company in general, if they’ve never done it before, the first year is literally kind of observing, tweaking, tuning as we see that data come in.

We have clients, we have a client with a hundred year old business that basically shut their brick and mortar down last year and is all online only. And they started as a hardware store and evolved over the years. And then they just needed more space. And while it was cool that you could go in and get stuff, it was, you know, it was very, very small percentage of their overall business. And so they were like, hey, we’ve got to, we need this space where we’re just going to shut it down.

So that would kind of be the goal would be like, what’s the tipping point of when you, you know, become more of a national business versus more of a local business with those goods and services. A lot you see, it’s really frustrating because there was recently an article in the Baltimore Sun paper, our local newspaper, and it was talking about this 69-year-old business shutting down and people were really upset about it. Then you went to their website and it looked like it was made with a Microsoft front page, which was a early 90s, mid 90s software package that Microsoft made to basically take a Word document and put it into a web page.

And it was really awful, but it worked. It was the first generation of website tools that really kind of like put things in the hands of non developers or non coders. But it’s like they hadn’t updated their website in 21 years. And it’s like, that’s why you’re not reaching the masses. And so those that have iterated and reinvented themselves and evolved that process, you know, are able to kind of continue to move it on. So I’ll often look at those stories and go check and see and like, what are they doing with their website? And if they haven’t done anything, it’s no surprise that they’re having problems in this day and age.

Can you give me a case study that happened during COVID, someone who woke up in the middle of March that, gee, we won’t be able to sell anything through our stores, it’s going to be locked down and we’re not going to survive if you don’t make a pivot to online. And did you have clients like this that you help?

So, you know, oftentimes, most of all, just based on the size of folks that we work with. So we’re not working with the Nordstrom’s or the Best Buy’s of the world. We’re generally not working with a super small kind of mom and pop store either. It’s somebody that’s generally like a bit of a force, maybe in their industry. Maybe they have seven or eight stores. So generally, they’ve at least dipped their toes in the water by the time they get to us.

But we took on a client that we signed up at the end of Q4 of 2019, and it was a 25 store women’s fashion brand, and they had no e-commerce whatsoever. They were primarily in kind of higher income resort type areas. And the CEO, the designer actually called me and said, hey, we gotta put this on hold. We’re dead in the water, all the stores are closed. And we walked away from that and we were like, we’ve got to do something here. And often in fashion, they want these pixel perfect designs of their brand and their site.

And they take a long time to do projects like that. And we walked I walked away from that. The actually the director of operations, as we were hanging up the Zoom call, said, man, we’ve got all this spring and summer stuff in the warehouse. I just don’t know what we’re going to do with it. And I took that back to our team and we came up very quickly with the concept of launching a pop up store for them where we basically, you know, set up an e-commerce presence for them on a platform called BigCommerce.

Their point of sale system actually had a native integration with that with BigCommerce. And we very, very quickly over the course of about two and a half weeks, got them up and running with a pop-up store and they literally sold a million dollars through the pop-up store and I think was really helped them through a really challenging period of like zero cash flow and no business. This is one of the things that’s so interesting, no business is built to survive on zero cash flow. They just aren’t, unless they’re heavily venture backed or some other type of unicorn.

And so it’s what’s, you know, I see people commenting on social media about some of the government subsidies like the PPP and other things. And, you know, they’re like, screw those business owners. And it’s just like, well, you know, first off, we’re employing a lot of people. And second off, no business is meant to have the U.S. and not deliver any kind of invoices or checks for, you know, weeks at a time. So those are things that have been really kind of struggling. And so being able to help somebody that was kind of dead in the water, get them up and running and out the door, was, you know, it felt really good to go through that process with them.

That’s pretty amazing that you can save companies with what you do. And, you know, what I found was that I think most of my clients, maybe there’s one exception, have been extremely resilient. Even that client was very resilient. They just slipped into some challenges lately. But most companies, they basically pivoted and they went home and they worked from home twice longer hours than before. And most of them actually grew substantially. and they’ve worked from home twice longer hours than before. And most of them actually grew substantially. Maybe it’s just the segment I was in, mostly business service, but it looks like there wasn’t even a recession this year, last year. Do you get this impression as well?

I mean, and it’s funny, you know, I have people that I trust as mentors and, you know, people to share points of view with. And when I’ve reached out to my network, you know, there’s a common thread of the highest highs and the lowest lows. You know, I think, you know, from our standpoint, we had significant growth. We actually were able to find people that had never been out of work before and really upgrade in some positions that we had to be able to do that.

So we, you know, we did go out and hire and find, and, you know, I actually felt like for getting some of those government dollars, you know, I thought from a karma standpoint, I needed to go out, keep people working, put more people to work, take care of my staff, keep them healthy, like do whatever it takes to kind of get through that. And so you know, on some side, it was the highest highs of the ability to grow, the ability to find more staff, the ability to kind of, um, get people working again, and then the lowest lows where we had some significant, um, especially in the spring, our entire sales pipeline fell out of the bottom and we had to rebuild it from scratch.

So never in the history of the organization, even when I ran it out of my house, did we not have any sales. And we went through some periods where there were just no freaking sales coming through and people were just like, what’s happening? What are we doing? Where are we gonna go? Who’s gonna be the president? Like all of that. So we had the highest highs and the lowest lows. We were able to make some significant strategic moves forward. And then we and then we had a great fourth quarter.

You know, I literally the last week of the year, we had our best quarter ever from a new business standpoint. But literally all of it came in the last week of the year. I literally was on the phone till four o’clock on New Year’s Eve getting across the pipeline because people were just nervous. It’s like, you know, people would say, hey, cash is king. We need to do this project, but like cash is king. And so we we worked through that, but it was definitely, you know, an interesting and interesting process. But I’m I’m really proud of that.

We kept our staff pretty safe overall. We had a game plan early on to move to work home. I was at a conference out in California. And heard about this coronavirus, and I woke up in the middle of the night in California. And I’m not a prepper. I’m not like, you know, that’s just not my style. And I woke up at 430 in the morning, California time, like holding my chest, being like, I really need to pay attention to this thing and set forth a game plan to, I called my director of ops.

And I said, hey, we need to come up with a work from home plan, you know, and I thought it would be like a two-week snow day kind of thing. I thought it would be, you know, like, you know, back in 2010 when we got, you know, we had two blizzards on top of each other, like, you know, I had no way thought it was going to be months and months, but we were able to place some orders for some things prior to the rush, you know, kind of tell the staff, hey, you really ought to go get some groceries.

And we were able to keep the impact from a health standpoint on the organization was almost zero based upon our communication and all of that. I felt a little bit like my father lecturing people at times and kind of say, hey, like, got to stay safe, got to wear your mask. But at the same time, we had almost no impact from people catching the coronavirus. So I’m really proud of that and really actually proud of how we treated people in the process.

So, listen, let’s switch gears here. Normally, I ask this question at the beginning of the conversation, I’d really like to kind of roll back the story. So tell me a little bit about how you became, how you founded this company. This has been around since 1999. So you’ve been around for two decades.

Well, 2007, I’m sorry, I don’t mean to correct you, but we were founded in 2007.

Okay, all right, then I misread your LinkedIn page. Anyway, that’s 13, 14 years. So how did you get to starting the business and how did you get here?

Yeah, so it was kind of interesting. So I really fell in love with search optimization, SEO. I also really fell in love with what’s something they call conversion rate optimization. It’s trying to basically, it’s methods in psychology about getting more people to click on buttons and take action on your website. And as a marketer, it was almost instant gratification in the e-commerce space. You could buy a paid ad on Google, get them into your website.

And if you do enough of those, enough people will click and buy, and you can track the entire transaction across the analytics and other programs. And I really fell in love with that. And I was working at a company called Allegis Group or AeroTech. It’s one of the top 10 staffing companies in the world. And one of the people in leadership came to me one day and said, hey, I just played golf with this guy and my member guest at his country club. And the guy is selling a million dollars a year through his website and didn’t know how the hell he even did it. He just put up a website and sales started coming in.

And so he’s like, this guy needs some help. So I started that relationship and really just kind of started to dig in to e-commerce. And this was in like 0405 timeframe. And as I got closer to 07, I’m like, I ended up getting two clients. And I was like, you know what, I’ve got like a decent monthly little recurring income coming in. And I was able to, you know, based on some savings and other stuff, leave my job, which was pretty significant and and have some runway. And so I left my job one day and ended up hiring three people getting going.

We built it out of my house. I had like this bachelor pad in a cool part of town and we just started servicing clients and I actually took meetings at the house and all kinds of stuff and people loved it. They loved coming over to the house, you know, they had a bar, they could have a drink, they could like sit out on my rooftop deck and look out over the city. Everybody just loved it and so we really just started to kind of go, go, go.

My original vision was to build basically like $5,000 e-commerce websites using a platform that doesn’t really even exist anymore. And I quickly learned that that wasn’t enough. And so now our projects are in the six figure range for when we implement something. But I just kind of went through this this evolutionary process. It was it was challenging because I’m kind of a crazy individual. As my wife likes to say, I have two distinct sides.

I have this high expectation, fast growth side, and I have this super thoughtful side where, you know, I’ll cry at the end of the bodyguard, the movie with Whitney Houston, like, you know, like, you know, why can’t Whitney and Kevin Costner be together? Right. Like, so, you know, I’m this like kind of two distinct ends. And over the course of, you know, the first, you know, probably, you know, 12 years or so of the company, my personality would kind of drive different eras of the company.

Sometimes we had high expectations and we didn’t treat people very well. And other times we were like super thoughtful, but we didn’t hold people accountable. And so it would, this pendulum would swing back and forth. And I went through a period in where, I think it was around 2016, where I kind of had a trifecta or actually four things kind of like punched me in the face. The first was one of my really, really close friends passed away in a sleep at thirty nine from a heart attack. And my father had his first heart attack at age 40. And it really set me into this weird headspace.

Sometimes we had high expectations and we didn't treat people very well. And other times we were like super thoughtful, but we didn't hold people accountable. And so it would, this pendulum would swing, swing back and forth. Click To Tweet

The second was I really wasn’t happy overall with where we were at. I wasn’t happy just, you know, I was at this event with Marcus Limones. He’s like, raise your hand if you don’t like people that work for you. And, you know, it was like a really kind of game changing kind of moment for me. You know, I had a major client go bankrupt. And then the last was I had a weird health issue myself. I actually had a four pound testicle. And so I had, I dealt with that for almost two years. Imagine a bag of sugar in your pants. And that was my life for a while.

And it was very embarrassing. And also it took three surgeries to kind of get it on, you know, get it on its way. And it wasn’t life threatening by any means, you know, but it was very much just self-esteem and just uncomfortable. It was just painful and it was just a challenge. And so, you know, all of those things kind of meshed together. And it led me down a path to say, I need to course correct where we’re going. And we made some false moves. I thought there was some strings that I could pull that were like little tiny strings, but I thought they were big.

And I pulled those strings. And I did that for about, you know, about a year. And then somebody gave me a copy of the traction book. And I really fell in love with EOS. You know, I had kind of read these books, you know, how to run your company. I actually had engaged with a with an author that was often at the Inc. conferences and has best selling business books. I engaged in personal coaching with him and I was paying this guy thousands of dollars a month. And I’m like, man, I need a fucking system.

You know, I need a way to like way to do that. And some of that was because I was always the quarterback and never the coach when I, prior to starting my company. So, you know, my kind of, my emotions would push the company in different directions or I’d see something like a squirrel and like chase after it and so really kind of reading the EOS book and starting to understand, like for the first time, it connected all the dots for me. It’s like my staff doesn’t know what we should be doing.

They don’t know how we’re profitable and how we’re not. And in December 2018, with you in the room, we set forth on a meeting, you know, and started down that process. And it was very transformative overall for the company. You know, we built and evolved our scorecards. We did our entire VTO. We like literally put all of those pieces together and started down that path. And some people got off the train as it was going and some new ones got on. But, you know, from from my standpoint, I’m very pleased for we basically like it’s been two and some years, basically just about two full years and then a couple of months.

But I’m really pleased at how we have evolved. You know, it led to basically 50 percent growth last year and probably 50 percent growth this year. And doing it in a thoughtful way that when the employees come in, they’re going to know what they’re doing. They’re going to be on boarded. They’re going to have process and like, you know, all of that stuff. So to me, that was all really game changing overall and connected a lot of dots for the first time that you can have a high expectation and also be thoughtful, you know, as long as you have the core components of what you’re doing.

No, no, it’s great. So definitely, I mean, definitely you embraced, you know, I’ve worked with many clients and some of them really embraced the whole system as such without second guessing it. And then you have those, we call them high fact finders. I’m one of these kind of people who are always asking you questions and have never satisfied with the answer.

You’re driving me crazy, Steve. You’re always pushing my buttons, buddy.

Yeah, yeah, sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn’t.

I love you.

But if you embrace the whole thing, it definitely works better. So tell me a little bit about going back to your business and what you do. How does that, you mentioned you work with small to medium-sized businesses. How do they compete with the major brands for internal traffic? I mean, I would imagine a Coca-Cola, maybe this is the wrong example, but they can pour billions of dollars into their marketing and they can dominate everything. And what does a small player do and how can they even compete? How can you have them compete?

I think people are looking and probably Amazon or Walmart would be good examples of of what people are competing against. And some of our clients sell on Amazon. As a small business, you have the ability to sell on Amazon. It’s a little bit of a, it can be a losing proposition for many based upon margins. But really we’re looking for people to tell authentic stories. So people are looking to buy from business, right?

Like businesses that know what they’re doing. People are looking for help. People are looking for recommendations and opinions. And so, you know, one of the things is like important to us is we want our clients to try to tell their stories as best as possible. I think that. I’m like a huge, like, fan of the 80s, and, you know, I make my wife watch all of these bad 80s movies.

There’s this really horrible 80s movie that’s so bad, it’s good. It’s called North Shore. It’s about surfing. They talk about the soul surfing and about, you know, like really kind of being one with the water. And and, you know, I think that websites should have a soul, right? They should tell a story. And so, you know, at the same time, customers have a high expectation, right?

They’re used to like putting something in their cart with Amazon. And if you live in a market like Baltimore, where there’s, you know, a couple hundred thousand square foot of warehouses for Amazon, that stuff might come the next day. I’ve put stuff in my cart at 10 o’clock at night and it’s been on my porch at like eight o’clock the next morning, mind blowing. And so you need to find ways to use and leverage technology to be competitive. It’s not always price competitive, but it’s service competitive as well.

So, there is a lot of opportunity to go out and get business. People are searching for these phrases in Google or Facebook or YouTube and looking for the things that, you know, our customers sell, and you want to try to figure out how to get that, get their website in front of them.

So, describe me an ideal client, like the perfect client that can use all the stuff that you can offer. What would you do for them?

Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, the ideal client has some size. You know, I think that you need to make some investments, you know, in terms of technology and both implementing it and learning how to use it. And so an ideal client is open-minded, takes our recommendations on that, lets us kind of build another, you know, another one of our overall uniques is following an inbound methodology. And HubSpot coined the term inbound marketing back in the kind of mid 2000s.

You need to make some investments in terms of technology and both implementing it and learning how to use it. Click To Tweet

So for you, if you’re not aware, HubSpot is a CRM and marketing automation and customer service platform that allows you to have all automations and other other pieces. And they coined this term inbound marketing to pull visitors from the web into you versus kind of outbound marketing, screaming at them like billboards, TV, radio, traditional kind of advertising. And so one of our uniques is we follow an inbound methodology with everything that we do.

And they have this concept of like the flywheel and it’s attract visitors to your website, engage them, and then delight them when they become customers. And that flywheel just keeps spinning and spinning and spinning. And so it’s really kind of following that. How do you attract visitors into your website? How do you delight them once you get there? I mean, how do you engage them once they get there? And then how do you delight them when they become customers?

Because it’s not just enough to like close the deal or sell the product. You need to sell two products or three products. The higher you can take somebody’s lifetime value up as a customer, that helps you recoup the dollars you spend on Google AdWords and Facebook advertising and all that kind of stuff that you’re doing. So if your average order is a size of $150 dollars and somebody is at seventy five dollars, you want to fight through marketing campaigns to get them up those steps and moving.

So that’s really how we think about it overall. We want to leverage psychology and functionality to get people to convert on the Web site, like to click add the card, put the credit card in, and then we want to make sure that we’re delighting them, you know, after the fact, and then re-engaging them and getting them to come back and order again. Only a few of our customers are like one and done type products. Most of them have things that they can kind of resell over and over. And even if the big product that they sell is one and done, they generally have some consumable items that, you know, attach or plug into that, that, you know, they need to kind of, you know, continue on through. So that’s really how we think about it, you know, in terms of our marketplace.

That’s interesting. So it’s more of a strategic approach where you’re not thinking about, you know, I read it somewhere many years ago that the purpose of a sale is not to make that sale, but to get the customer. And when you got the customer, then you can, you know, grow this customer, kind of you can nurture and then make it bigger. And so it sounds like your approach is more of a strategic. It’s not just look at the immediate sale, but, okay, how can I then make this customer grow and become a really good one for us down the road? Do you do this by…is there a way to actually select those people to go after that have this potential to have a big lifetime value? Or is just a hit and miss thing that some of them are just going to grow in some numbers game?

So there’s a concept called RFM, race and frequency monetary. Right. And so, you know, many of these automation and there’s a couple of them that we work with. One is called HubSpot, one’s called Klaviyo. And it really depends upon what your overall requirements are on what we recommend. But, you know, one common campaign we run is called a win back campaign. They want to win you back as a customer. And what we’re looking at there is if it’s been 12 months or longer since you’ve purchased from us, the longer that email sits, at some point your email address will fall off the cliff, like we like to say, and we won’t be able to get you back.

Once we get you back, we start you through the whole process over again. And so a common campaign we’ll do is a win-back campaign, where we’ll get more aggressive the longer the timeframe is to win somebody back. And so that’s, you know, it might start with a little reminder, hey, it’s been a while, all the way up to maybe a free product or a coupon code, et cetera. You know, one of the things that we’ll.

Talk to people about is, first of all, free shipping is the number one promotion, bar none, that you can do on your on your e-commerce website, bar none. The second thing is that people will just kind of get a little funky about giving out coupon codes, those they spread around the Internet if they’re not unique and lots of stuff happens. And so we’ll often recommend to people is, is there a low cost companion item that’s cool that you can throw in? You know, if you make a cool product, can you give away a logo t-shirt or just another little thing? You know, if your average order value is $150, right?

And you give away a 10% off coupon code, you know, you’ve basically let them into $15 a year margin, whereas you can buy a $6 t-shirt and you’ve just like recouped half of what you were going to give away and test different things like that and see if it works equally. Sometimes it does. And so those are the types of things that we want to think about, you know, as we’re going down that process. And if you buy enough of those t-shirts, you might be able to get them for four or five bucks. So, you know.

It’s again, it comes back to the strategic layers. It’s not about the mechanics, not just the mechanics. And obviously you’ve got the technology, you know how to use Klaviyo and BigCommerce and Shopify, whatever tools you use. You’re an expert of that, but you add the strategic layer to, okay, I’m in the shoes of this business owner. How do I grow the business to e-commerce and what kind of strategic approaches, you know, they can, they can take to, to put a fast one on the competition.

And we have tools where we can put your order in for your, your data into it. And we can figure out what is the actual value of moving this keyword from the second page of Google to the first page of Google and look at trends and figure out, hey, this is where we need to double down and invest time.

Okay, that’s really fascinating. So our time is close to the end, but I want to ask you kind of a final question before we wrap up. You know, looking at 2021 post-COVID, what do you expect is going to happen in this e-commerce space? What is going to change?

Well, I mean, I think that we’re going to continue to see, I think there are things that hopefully go away, like masks and other stuff. And I’m happy to wear a mask and support that. But I think all of us would rather not, you know, if we had the option. So I think as more and more become vaccinated, I think there’s some things that are going to kind of like go away. I think some stuff like handwashing and stuff is going to stick around and people staying home when they’re sick. I think e-commerce has opened up the door to things like buy online and pick up in store.

I think like some of these delivery services, Instacart and other things, I think people are much more comfortable in working with apps and websites to place orders. I think that’s going to stick around. I don’t want to go walk around Best Buy for an hour and wait in line. I want to just pay online and go pull up and get my stuff and go. I think that we’re going to see continued investment in that. We’re seeing a push from the point of sale and ERP players that work in the mid-market to start to open up hooks to that so that we can have better or sophisticated buy online pick up the store you know for smaller mid-level merchants so I think a lot of that’s going to stick around for good and I think that we’re going to see a lot of evolution in that space.

Well, that’s certainly going to be super exciting and I’ll keep a tab on you, how that’s working out for you in 2021. Listen, for those listeners of ours who maybe they run a business and they want to get a little bit deeper and understand a bit more on what they need to do to drive sales up, or they just want to learn more about you, where can they reach you?

Yeah, they can go to our website, groovecommerce.com, groovcommerce.com. You can tweet at me at @Opie. I’m not super active much on Twitter anymore, but you can also find me on LinkedIn. I’m happy to connect with you if you want to mention that you saw me on this interview. I get lots of weird, random connection invites of people that I’ve never met or heard of, and I generally ignore those unless they say, hey, I met you at this thing, or hey, I saw you on this, and then I know that it’s genuine and they’re not trying to like rummage through my contact list.

Right. Okay, well, definitely mention the Proctor Connection, and this is how you heard Ethan. So Ethan, listen, thank you very much. Lots of interesting information. And for our listeners, stay tuned. The next week, you will have another exciting interview about business frameworks and how to grow an entrepreneurial business. Have a nice day.

Thank you.


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