189: Discover Your Ideal Self with Doug Lennick

11
Jan

Doug Lennick is a best-selling author, CEO, and Co-Founder of Think2perform, an agency specializing in performance development for individuals and teams. We discuss effective tips for improving self-awareness, ways to become a top performer in all aspects of your life, and how to uncover your ideal self. 

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Listen to the podcast here

 

Discover Your Ideal Self with Doug Lennick

Our guest is Doug Lennick, the CEO of Think2Perform, a coaching and performance development company, closing the gap between your real self, who you are today, and your ideal self for both individuals and teams. Doug, welcome to the show.

Thanks very much, Steve. Great to be here. Looking forward to it.

All right, so very interesting. Self-awareness is a big topic and you have co-founded the company around this topic. So what was the path that led you to this decision to become the co-founder and CEO of Think2Perform?

Well, I’m in my early 70s, so I won’t name the number just in case this is a timeless podcast. I’m in my early 70s. Yes. And I will say since I was really young, I mean, literally, I began wondering why people do what they do when I was a young boy. And I continued, and I continue. So I’m not done. And so what really led to this is I really been interested in the answer to two questions, pretty much my entire life. The first question is why do people do what they do?

And then the second question, is it possible that I or one could really be who I would ideally like to be more often. I was always looking at it from a very self-reflective perspective. Why do I do what I do? Why do other people do what they do? But then for me, is it possible that I could be who I’d like to be a little more often than I am? Because I realized I’m not the guy I want to be all the time and I just never understood that. And so those two questions essentially were the foundation of the company.

Love it, that’s great. So it seems to me that at the basis, and you also stated in your company description obviously, is that self-awareness is the critical ingredient in performance. So what makes it the critical ingredient?

Well, without it, the advantage to self-awareness is it gives us a platform from which we can make decisions. You know, I’m a philosopher, really, who got locked into business, and my favorite chain of philosophers were the great Greeks, starting with Socrates and then Plato and then Aristotle. And Aristotle was the one to have said, knowing oneself is the beginning of wisdom. And Socrates, who was Plato’s teacher, Socrates was the guy who said, a life unexamined is not worth living.

Knowing oneself is the beginning of wisdom. - Aristotle Click To Tweet

Yes, and so, and I don’t know, I was lucky I was born into wondering, and I realized that there’s something about humanity that is intriguing and exciting, and there is so much potential in each human being, and so to me, if I could unlock that answer to the question why, and then how to close the gap, that seemed to be a purpose worthy of pursuit, and so that’s why we started the company. And the wonderful thing, Steve, is that, well, obviously, we aren’t our ideal selves all the time, and so there is an opportunity.

That’s a beautiful thing, that each human being has an opportunity that never ends to get better. And so I’ve come to this awareness that there is no end to better. And once I came to that awareness, it really helped me feel a lot better about getting older. I used to think, not even that long ago, as recently as five years ago, I was still thinking that maybe my greatest hits were behind me. Not that I have a lot of great hits, but I have a few good hits. And they can get better. I can get better. And I feel a growth spurt going on right now in my life. And so that’s exciting. And so I see myself getting better.

And I’ve always believed this, Steve. I’ve always believed that the human condition, I’ve been saying this since my early 20s, the human condition is such that we will always see problem and opportunity in our circumstance. That’s the human gift. So no matter what condition you find yourself in, you will find ways to improve it. That’s the human nature. So we will always find problem and opportunity in our circumstance. So if I was the genie in Aladdin’s lamp and you gave me a wish and I granted it to you, at the end of the first day of you living in the world you wished for, you will be able to see it could be better. That’s your gift, that’s my gift. We all have that gift, humanity has that gift, it’s exciting.

Each human being has an opportunity that never ends to get better. Click To Tweet

 I love that. It reminds me of this story about this historian Will Durant, who wrote books about his history books, and when he was a young PhD student in his mid-20s, he had this vision that he wanted to write the history of the world, which would be like a major tome, and he went to his professor, and the professor dressed him down and said, don’t even dare thinking about writing such a book before you are 70 or 80 years old. He says, what do you mean? Well, you’re not possibly gonna have time to accumulate the knowledge to write such a book. So he basically, he wrote many books over his lifetime and then when he became 80 years old, he started working on the history of the world, and he published it when, I think he was 93. His wife helped him with publishing it, and it became a bestseller. It’s an awesome book, and it just reminded me of this whole idea of it’s a long game, and it’s basically an infinite game.

Well, you know, and interestingly, philosophically, a lot of the things that I, I believe to this day, I was pretty solid on. I’ve always believed that the game is largely about personal growth, which is why those questions are so relevant. I think the life game that we play is really all about trying to be the best at being ourselves we can be. That’s the game, that’s the challenge. And I look at it this way. They have all these little motivational cute little things. Is the glass half empty or half full? I look at it as the glass is half empty and half full.

And I think one of the things that I believe is important is at birth we’re given the glass. So I don’t know whatever your beliefs are about how people came about, but we were born. And so we can all at least accept we’re alive, and I personally think being alive is a gift. So I was given this gift, and so at birth, I’m given this gift of life, and along with my gifts, I’m given a glass, and it’s half empty and it’s half full.

And I handed the glass, and they say, “Doug, this is your glass. It’s half empty and it’s half full.” And you’re gonna carry it all your life. It’s gonna be half empty and half full every day. And then when you die, you will carry this glass with you and it will be half empty and half full. Your assignment, should you choose to accept it, and there is no option, is this is your assignment, is deal with it. Now you can choose not to accept it, but it’s still your assignment.

So. You know, I think it is often, it’s actually a good thing that it’s half empty because there is room to pour more stuff in it. If it was already full, there would be no room for improvement. There would be no room for discovery. It would be a very, very dull life.

Correct. And that’s a wonderful way. I like how you look at it. That’s a great way to look at it, which is there’s always more to put in. And the other way to look at it is there’s always good things and there’s always bad things, every day. The day is beautiful. It’s like the infamous 9-11, 2001. It was a beautiful day and an ugly day. But it was a day where, it was a rare day. It was a day where it was blue sky all across the country.

You never have blue sky all across the country. I mean, it’s got to be a cloud somewhere. No, it’s blue skies all day everywhere. Beautiful day and an ugly day. And every day is like that. You know, contemporary events, you know, you look at for our purposes and this moment in time, look at what’s going on right now in Israel. And we got hundreds of people that are being killed. And it’s a beautiful day, I’m looking outside, and that’s an ugly day.

I think each of us is given this assignment, essentially, you’re born into a life, into humanity, you are part of something, and you have a role to play. And I believe each of us has a role to play. And if we were in the sports world, we’re supposed to have at the end of the game a higher score, we’re supposed to have a plus minus, we’re supposed to end up, the older I get, the more mistakes I make, but also the more opportunities I have to make a difference.

Each of us is given this assignment, born into a life, into humanity, part of something, and with a role to play. Click To Tweet

So my list of transgressions grows, but so does my list of gratitude. So the longer I live, the more my opportunity, the more I have an opportunity to make a difference, and yet also the more I have that I’ve done wrong. So all day, every day, I’m just dealing with myself and net net, I’m supposed to make progress. So I have three mindsets every day, accept the past is the past, and there’s nothing I can do about the past, but tomorrow begins today, tomorrow’s my enemy, so accept that today I can begin creating the future.

So accept, acceptance, progress, not perfection, I’ve given up on perfection, and then no end to better. And those three mindsets help me feel good about every day, most days. I woke up today a little bit bothered by an empty hole in my mouth because I lost a crown, but I’ll be all right. It’s okay, I mean, that’s the way it is. And I just smiled to myself and I said, that’s the way it is.

Even kings lose their crown sometimes.

Yeah, sometimes. So I think challenges are part of the journey. They’re not in the way, they’re on the way. I like that understanding.

So let’s dig a little bit deeper into creating that self-awareness, which all of us partially aware people are yearning for. So you developed what we’re talking about, this called the Freeze Game, which is a good exercise. So tell me a little bit about the Freeze Game, how does it work and how does it help create more self-awareness?

The Freeze Game is a tool within a tool. The tool that it’s within is a tool we call the four R’s. And the four R’s, the first R, I wanted to have three R’s. I grew up in the world of three R’s, reading, writing, arithmetic. And I wanted three R’s, but I couldn’t come up with three, so we came up with four. But the first R is to recognize. And the first part of recognition is to recognize what’s going on with oneself. Goes back to Aristotle, knowing oneself is the beginning of wisdom.

So recognize what I am experiencing in the moment. So the Freeze Game is a game where we hit the pause button and we essentially ask ourselves three questions. What am I thinking, or answer three questions. What am I thinking right now? Like right now I’m thinking very much about the four R’s and the freeze game and explaining this in a way that is audience friendly.

So that’s what I’m thinking about. How am I feeling right now? Right now I’m feeling very engaged, I’m very alert, I’m comfortable, and yet just right on that engaged edge where I feel really involved. And then what am I doing? I’m sitting in my chair, I’m sitting forward facing the screen, the computer screen. I’m glancing back and forth. My left leg is crossed over my right. I’m bobbing and weaving because I kinda move when I talk. So that’s what I’m doing.

So the freeze game is this awareness of thought, emotion, and action. And the way the brain works is practice makes permanent. Practice makes permanent. Aristotle also said if you wanna learn to play the flute, you have to play the flute. If you want to learn to pay attention to yourself, you have to practice paying attention to yourself. Most people overestimate how much they know themselves. They fail to realize how often their minds wander. Our minds wander.

We just had, our company Think to Perform just had our annual conference. One of our speakers was Johann Hari, who is the author of Stolen Focus. And we’re in a time where we’re distracted all the time. Like you and I are actually going to have a one-hour uninterrupted podcast where neither of us are going to be bothered by our cell phones or by a computer message or by anything. We’re actually gonna do this entire thing without interruption. Almost nobody can go an entire hour like we are doing. They can’t do that.

Our focus has been stolen. It’s been stolen by all these interruptions. We’re in a world of instant gratification. They even name the tools are Insta stuff. Instagram. Yeah, Instagram it’s even called. So it’s like you’re supposed to be on it right now. Well, all that interruption steals our focus, and our focus is necessary for us to create and innovate. We can’t create and innovate solutions to problems in nanoseconds.

We actually need a little bit more attention. And attention density shapes identity. That’s a quote from Jim Lehrer, not Jim Lehrer, it’s, oh, why am I blanking now? Tony Schwartz and, yeah, Tony Schwartz and David Rock in their Neuroscience of Leadership. And Tony and I, we wrote, not Tony Schwartz, Jeff Schwartz, so I’m getting my Schwartzes mixed up.

Is Jeff Schwartz the advertising guy, Jeff Schwartz?

There is a neuroscientist out of UCLA. Yeah. It’s a fascinating stuff, but it helps us understand that the brain really needs repetition, and we repeat, we repeat, we repeat. If we practice the Freeze Game, and as a company, we send these out, thousands of them every day. If anybody wants to play, they can just email me or text me, and we’d get them signed up, cost them nothing, three or four times a day, they get a little reminder, it says, what are you thinking, how are you feeling, what are you doing?

The idea is, and literally, we’d send out thousands of these every day, every hour, all over the world. And people are just learning to pay attention to themselves. Now, what’s the advantage to paying attention to myself? Well, out of paying attention to myself, I can make decisions. So we have this logic chain, effective relationships with people, effective leadership of people, but let’s just start with relationships.

We live in a world of relationships. You and I have a relationship. We are human beings. We are born to be lingual because we are born part of a humanity we’re supposed to be able to communicate with. And so we have these relationships. But how effective we are at relating to one another and to strangers on the street is a function of how effective we are at managing ourselves. So how well I deal with me has everything to do with how well I relate to you or anyone else.

Well, that’s a function of my decision making and that’s a function of self-awareness. So it all starts with what Aristotle said. It all starts with knowing oneself. It starts with me. Self-awareness first. If I know myself, then out of that awareness, I can make better decisions. If I make better decisions, I can manage myself better. If I manage myself better, I will relate to you more effectively. And that’s as simple as it gets. So the position that we take, and my co-author and I, Chuck Wachendorfer, and I wrote this book, Don’t Wait for Someone Else to Fix It, we basically are saying 100% of our readers and 100% of those who don’t read the book, everybody, 100% of the population has an influencing role in society.

Everybody is an influencer of somebody. Everybody influences somebody. And what we say is that is the definition of leadership. Leadership is that which one does to influence the thoughts and the behaviors of another. That’s what leaders do. Now the question isn’t then, will I influence somebody else? The question is, what kind of influence will I be? I will be an influence.

And I will either be a positive influence or a negative influence. One or the other. All the time. And there is no neutral. Neutral begins with the letter N, which is the word that also begins the word negative. The word neutral, the claiming of neutrality is the beginning of negative. Not positive is the beginning of negative. So if I claim I don’t want to help, by definition, I’m negative. So I’m either making a positive difference or I’m not. One or the other. And I get to choose. I get to choose.

Either we’re growing or we’re dying. So I just want to steer us back a little bit to the four R’s because I’m very curious. So the first R is recognition. So what are the other three R’s?

The second R is to reflect. Now that I recognize what I’m thinking and how I’m feeling and what I’m doing, and now that I recognize you, because the second part of recognition is the empathy, it’s I gotta recognize what’s going on with me, but I also gotta recognize what’s going on with you. And a lot of people are not good at that either. But then we get into reflection. So in reflection, in the reflection state, I reflect on the big picture. I reflect on what I really want to have happen out of this.

I really want my relationship with Steve to be productive. I want us together to make a positive difference today on the people who have an opportunity to listen to our podcast. So I genuinely am thinking, all right, I reflect on my values. My values are family, happiness, wisdom, integrity, service, health. The process of reflection helps me get into a little bit more of a cognitive state, and it calms down my emotions in the event I’m a little emotionally charged.

Because what we know is high energy emotional states lead to challenging decision making situations. So when I’m feeling really angry or scared or really excited or exuberant, either end of those things, my ability to access my rational thoughts is compromised. And so I need to know that. That’s why I recognize that. So I recognize I’m emotionally charged and therefore I must reflect because I don’t want to emote. The word emotion comes from the Latin word emotus. It means feel it, do it, move. Feel it, move. Get going, Steve.

But what we want you to do, what I want you to do is I want you to e-think motion. You know, we’re not in life-threatening situations that often that we need to e-motion. We need to reflect, e-think. And that process of thinking calms the emotional center and increases the probability of me making a rational decision, which leads me to the third R, which is to refrain. So, and Aristotle, that’s another Aristotle thing, too, but I’ll use Winnie the Pooh instead of Aristotle.

People get tired of Aristotle, they like Winnie. Winnie the Pooh, great philosopher that he was, he once looked down, you might remember this episode of Winnie the Pooh. When he looks down and he notices the shirt he has on, he does not like the shirt he has on. And so upon reflection, he decides to change his mind so he doesn’t have to change his shirt. That’s called reframing.

Framing is how I think about something. Reframing is changing how I think about something. And then the fourth R is to respond. I now need to make a choice. My response is to act or to not act. Not doing something is a response just as doing something is a response. So the four R’s from top to bottom, recognize, reflect, reframe, respond.

Yeah. That is it.

And it all starts with the recognition and that’s the freeze game. That is awesome.

So that takes us to our next question, which is decisions. So you talk about decision making being the key to enhancing the word. So how do you mean that? Why is decision making so important?

Well, we make 35,000 decisions a day, roughly. That’s what the scientists tell us. So, maybe they’re off by a couple thousand, I don’t care. Maybe you make 40,000, maybe you make 30. That’s a lot.I make a lot.And what I realize, and it’s kind of like James Clear’s Atomic Habits concept. One little thing, a friend of mine, a woman by the name of Paula Doroff, she wrote a book recently, it’s called One Decision Away, and her life story is incredible, and the decisions that she made to get from the terrible life that she had in Brazil and the multiple moves that she made around the world to finally end up where she is today, and we literally are one decision away. Every day, today, you’re one decision away from, you know, it’s like Yogi Berra is a famous American baseball player, long, long ago.But he was-

The fork in the road, take it, right?

He said, “When you come to the fork in the road, you gotta take it.” And that’s the deal. When you go right, you don’t go left. When you go left, you don’t go right. Those decisions are critical. And you need to be able to make those wisely. And you gotta be able to let go of what you know in order to decide wisely. You gotta be able to accept new information. Since I’ve been doing the Greek philosophers, I bookended it, so I’ve done Socrates and I’ve done Aristotle.

You gotta be able to make wise decision. And you gotta be able to let go of what you know in order to decide wisely. Click To Tweet

So let me throw in a little Plato, he’s in the middle. Plato’s Allegory of the Cave, which he wrote about in The Republic, is really the story of life. We’re all in a cave, we’re all in that cave. And every once in a while, one of us escapes the cave and goes on the hero’s journey. And we get out of the cave and we notice there’s a heck of a lot we didn’t know was out here. Like a wow.

Then we go back in the cave and tell people, you won’t be able to believe what we just saw out there. And they’ll go, you’re crazy. Out there is crazy. This is reality. The cave is reality. The shadows are reality. Not the people aren’t real. The shadows are real. Color isn’t real, darkness is real. We’ve lived in darkness our whole life. That was the allegory of the cave. The men were born and raised in the cave. One escapes and goes on the hero’s journey, and when the hero returns, he’s not welcome. He’s not welcome because he’s bringing in new information.

That’s not welcome. And we’re living in a world today where we’ve got a lot of people in their respective caves. And it’s time for us to get out. We gotta get out of the cave, we gotta get our periscopes up, we gotta recognize there are eight billion people in this world, there are probably gonna be more, and we gotta figure out how to make this work for eight billion people, not a couple hundred people. That’s the deal.

So we have to have a collective consciousness, and I think it is time for each human being to personally step up. And that’s why the title of the book is Don’t Wait for Someone Else to Fix It. You know, I’m here, got my fingers pointing. One finger points to the blame, I blame them, the other figure points to who should fix it. I blame you and I want you to fix it.

And nobody is thinking, hey, how about me? And what I’m saying is each of us has an opportunity to make a difference. And if all of us make that choice, the huge impact that will have will be enormous. And that’s my crusade. That’s why I wrote the book. That’s why Chuck and I wrote the book. My collaborative writer’s been with me since the early 2000s.

Each of us has an opportunity to make a difference. And if all of us make that choice, the huge impact that will have will be enormous. Click To Tweet

But Doug, isn’t that the definition of leadership, really? Don’t wait for someone else to fix it?

That is part of the definition, because if I don’t wait, then I’m going to influence you. Now, you might choose to wait, but you might not. You might go, well, Doug jumped, I’m gonna jump. I tell this story of the five frogs on a log. So you got five frogs, and of course, we all know frogs are adult tadpoles. So our tadpoles are born in the spring, and then over the summer, they grow up into beading frogs. So now I’m a frog and it’s a hot summer day and I’m with my frog buddies and we’re on a branch.

There’s a tree that fell over the little river that we live by and that tree fell over, overhangs the river and there’s a branch that overhangs the water and we’re all sitting on the branch and it’s especially hot and I’m in the middle or somebody’s in the middle, I’m not even one of the frogs. We won’t be a frog, so there are five frogs, there’s five of them there sitting there. And it’s hot and this one frog is thinking, we’re gonna die up here, it’s so freaking hot. And he’s looking down into the water and he notices that there are all these other animals down there swimming, there’s even some frogs. And he sees other frogs, but he’s got these five frogs, and he decides he’s gonna jump. How many frogs are left on the branch after he decides he’s gonna jump?

Probably zero, right?

Five, and the reason there are five, because deciding and doing, there’s a big difference. And the reason he doesn’t jump is he decides to jump, and then he looks to his right and his left and he sees the other frogs are simply staying on the log and he’s thinking, they must know something I don’t know. And I’m not jumping until one of them jumps. And so they all stay there and they die on the branch. You know, we all know that if you put a frog in cool water and heat the water, the frog will not jump. The frog will die in that boiling water. If on the other hand, you throw a frog into hot water, they’ll jump out.

Yep, it’s big as a shark.

Yeah, and leadership is that which influences others. So, the four frogs that didn’t jump influenced the frog that wanted to jump. Had that frog jumped and taken the hero’s journey, he could have yelled back up to the other frogs and said, hey, jump, it’s great down here. Then those frogs might have because they could have seen it. But the frogs in the cave, the allegory of the cave, those guys couldn’t, they couldn’t see the light because they were still in the cave. But the frogs on the branch, they can see the water, and if one of them decides to jump, that one can be their hero.

So, Doug, before we finish up this conversation, I just want to mention that you’re coming up with a new book very, very soon, in a few days, titled Discover Your Values, The Complete Guidebook. And so, and there’s a question mark there. So why did you decide to write this book, and what is it about? What are you trying to achieve with it?

Well, I didn’t, I love that idea of writing that book, but I didn’t, but I like it, and I will say this. Just last week, we unveiled, in October of 2022, and we’re recording this right now in October of 2023, so I timestamp it, in the 11 months leading up to this October, we had launched this online values exercise at Think2Perform.

Any of your viewers, listeners can go online, think2perform.com, and in 10 or 15 minutes, they can complete an online values card exercise and discover their ideal self. And what we have found, and this is interesting, I’ll even ask you this, Steve, and we’ve got responses from, we’ve had over, close to 90,000 people complete the exercise this year, close to 90, from 146 nations around the world. There are 195 countries in the world, so about 75% of the world has voted.

And then outside of the United States, the countries that we got the most participation from were Indonesia, which surprised me, India, the United Kingdom, which didn’t surprise me, Canada and Australia. And what do you think the number one value in the world is family. Number two is health. Number three is happiness. Number four and number five are relationships and friendships. If you look at the top ten, the top ten are grouped into several categories.

People want, number one, people care about people all over the world. It turns out, you know, and it’s really funny because each culture thinks they care about their children, but the other people don’t. Golda Meir once said back in when she, and I don’t know when she passed away, but Golda Meir had an interesting position when she was, you know, fighting with the Palestinian fight that goes on constantly in the Middle East.

And she said to the opponent, she said, I can forgive you for killing our children. I cannot forgive you for making us kill your children. Now what’s interesting is people all over the world love their children. It’s not peculiar to Americans. It’s not like just those in the United States care about their children. People in England care, people in Africa care, people everywhere care. It turns out people all over the world care about people.

Second, people care about making a difference. Helping others and meaningful work were both in the top 10. And creativity is in the top 10. Creativity is about creating and doing things to make a difference. So people care about people, they care about making a difference, and they care about the things that matter, doing it right. They care about doing it right and being rewarded for it. So there’s really four buckets, four buckets of things. I care about people, family, relationships, friendships. I care about making a difference, meaningful work, helping others. I care about doing it right, integrity, honesty. I care about being rewarded for doing it right, happiness and health. Those are the top 10. By the way, wealth and money make the top 20, but not until 17 and 19. It’s not about the money.

I believe that. A lot of people yearn for the money because they think it’s gonna buy them all the other things. It’s gonna buy them love and friendship and recognition, and maybe it will allow them to be more creative. So, Doug, our time is coming to an end, so if people would like to fill out this questionnaire, they want to learn their own values, where should they go? I mean, if they want to read the article.

They should go to think2perform.com, and right on the front page, you can see it, it’ll say, Discover Your Ideal Self, you’ll just click there, and it’s literally a card sort exercise. It’s kind of fun, you’ll get to play the game online. We have the physical cards, we sell thousands of those as well, but you can do this online thing for free. Anybody can Google me or Google us. A lot of what we do, we give away. I always figure if people realize that what we give away is valuable, they assume what we charge for must be also. And in fact it is. I will say I am, and what I consider myself to be an Adam Smith enlightened capitalist. I believe it’s in my interest to act in the interests of my community. So it’s in my interest to act in your interest. And I believe that the purpose of business is no more to make money than the purpose of life is to breathe.

It’s just the byproduct, making money. I agree with you. So, Doug, thank you for coming on the show and sharing your wisdom and talking about the Greeks, Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, and then Winnie the Pooh.

Well, and you gave me a new book. Thank you for coming up with a new book, Discover Your Values, the complete guidebook. I think we’re gonna do it out of your inspiration. Why did I decide to write it? I will say because Steve Preda talked me into it.

Well, just be careful because there’s another Black Lennon who has claimed to have written it. So just don’t get into the misunderstanding with him.

Oh, it’s probably a chat, you know, you can. I’ve actually, oddly enough, I have discovered several books for sale under my name that I did not write. And so the good news is somebody thinks my name is worth using. I have a, I gotta tell you this one last thing, Steve. My first, Fred Heal and I co-authored Moral Intelligence and Moral Intelligence 2.0. Fred has passed away last year, and our collaborative writer with Kathy Jordan, she still is, but the first book, the second moral intelligence book was picked up by a Chinese publisher. The first book was published in Chinese, but it was pirated, it was stolen by a Chinese publisher. And I always thought that they kind of missed the point. You know, moral intelligence, don’t steal a book, you know?

Thank you, Doug, for coming to the show. I really enjoyed the conversation. And those of you listening and like it, please go to YouTube, follow us, or on Apple Podcasts, and give us a comment. What do you like, what you don’t like, and influence. Be a leader, step up, and don’t wait for others to fix it. Fix it yourself, give us some feedback to make this podcast better. Thank you, Doug, and thanks for listening.

 

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