13: Focus on the Fundamentals with Steve Deller

Steve Deller, Founder and CEO of Virid, a business that helps retailers navigate ecommerce best practices.

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Focus on the Fundamentals with Steve Deller

Our guest is Steve Deller, who CEO of Virid Inc., which is a software technology company in the Washington DC area. And Steve Deller started life as a IT engineer, software engineer. He graduated from the University of Maryland, and then he worked for a couple of companies and he rose in the ranks. And in the year 2000, he struck up out on his own to found Virid, which really is focused on helping retailers navigate e-commerce technologies and best practices. And they’ve been doing this for 20 years. So welcome, Steve.

Thank you.

It’s great to have you. So Steve, first of all, I’d like to ask you about your origin story. So tell me a little bit about, okay, the first 10 years you were working for different companies, but how do you become an entrepreneur and what took you on the journey?

Sure, back in ‘99, I was working for a software development shop, and we had just started, the Internet was new, and we had just started building e-commerce solutions for a number of large name retailers. And at the conclusion of each of those projects, we were always asked the same question, what do we do now? The technology was new, the space was new, and many of the retailers were scrambling to try to figure out how to operate in this space.

And there weren’t a lot of resources at the time to help them after their website was created. What types of promotions do you want to do and how do you address different technological challenges and the growing space? So because there weren’t any companies out there, I set out to create an entity that would help these folks transition from not having a website to having an e-commerce storefront back in the day.

So I worked with the company, I was a software engineer for such that I would transition out of the company starting my own. I would help them continue to develop solutions using the tech that we had built in the past, and then I would take over those clients as they launched live. So it was a very nice, gracious transition from being an employee to being a partner with a pretty large software shop at the time. So it worked out nicely for me and hopefully for them.

So it sounds like it was an amicable divorce. And I wonder why you made this step. Could you not have self-realized in the company?

They were more focused on the software size of things. They were not in the business of doing ongoing support and maintenance and those types of activities. I mean, quite frankly, there wasn’t any money in it for them and so they liked the one and done type projects for them. So it really wasn’t part of their business model. Along the way, one of the brick and mortar malls, the Chelsea Simon Property Group, created this online version of that support where they would go out to their various brick and mortar tenants and provide this commerce solution for them as an extension of their brick and mortar rents.

But they decided they didn’t want to be in that business either. So there were a lot of perhaps false starts or repurposing of their vision and we just thought we would take advantage of that. It made sense to us at the time. We kept hearing the same things. It felt like there was a niche in the industry that we were filling.

Okay, that’s really interesting. So that was 20 years ago. So what has changed in the last20 years?

What we learned is probably what many of the other businesses before us had also learned is that there isn’t a lot of money in the services side. It’s kind of a commodity and we found that our revenue model was very cyclical. It had ebbs and flows and it was very difficult to maintain an ongoing business. You know, we have recurring expenses every month, but work would come in in the holidays and when new large initiatives would come up, and it was very difficult to predict.

And so we then sought to add to our offerings. In addition to the services and just ad hoc software development type activities, we decided to build our own product that we could build on top of. It would give us a recurring revenue model. It gives us more predictable results. We knew our platform inside and out. So we knew what the capabilities were and weren’t. And that helped us quite a bit.

So, your company is kind of a mix of professional service firms because you also provide consulting with your product and also a technology development firm. So what’s special about running a professional service firm and also a technology firm?

So yeah, that actually created its own challenges for us just because what we did didn’t really fit along the lines of what everyone else did. You know, you focus on what a professional services company does, and that’s only part of what we do. Or you could focus on here the metrics that a product company or a SAS company does, and those would apply to part of our business. And so trying to deal with all of that, you know, this kind of dual identity was a bit of a challenge, especially because my background is software engineering.

So trying to learn business along the way, not having any particular model that fits us 100%, it created a lot of trial and error for us in the early days. What’s unique about our solution is, and this was part of our plan back in the early 2000s, was to create ourselves as a one-stop shop.

So we could come into an existing retail operation, do an analysis of their existing website, their integrations, their partners, their plugins, how everything’s being done, what features they’re doing or not doing on their site, give them guidance to it, and if it was the right time in their evolution, we could then migrate them to our platform, build the site on our platform, build out the features, and then give them this ongoing multi-year support contract to continue that evolution, to give them support and help them grow their business.

It became what is part of our DNA to help businesses grow. We started out as a leaf and now our logo is a tree. You can see it in the background. So that is our own evolution from a leaf to a tree, but that’s what we like to do for our clients. We take folks and move them along their growth trajectory until either they succeed or are bought or move on to even larger things.

So how much of your work is actually consulting? So how much do you rely on people diagnosing and giving specific advice to people’s specific problems as opposed to implementing a software product in their business and essentially servicing that product.

You know, as a line item, our consulting business is probably small, you know, I would say less than 10%. That said, with all of our existing customers, we are continually consulting. We meet with them every week to talk about initiatives that are in progress, what’s coming up. They often present to us with challenges. We’ve seen this on this site. We’re trying to solve this problem. We want to do this type of promotion. What do you think?

And so we’re frequently asked to consult on a weekly basis with our existing clients. So in that regard, we are consulting a significant portion of our business. The implementation side of those actually becomes less than the part where we’re thinking through problems and working through with our various clients. We like to think of ourselves as a bit of a staff augmentation, you know, so we’re a member of all of our teams, our client teams, and they look at us, you know, the ones that are really deeply embedded with our company look at us as those extensions.

When they’re talking with a new vendor, for example, they’ll pick up the phone and ask us to sit in on that call and kind of be an observer and help them vet out whether or not that’s a technology they want to embrace or whether they should ignore it for its snake oil components. So it’s a great feeling to be part of something. So not only are we growing our own company, but we’re helping our clients grow and we share in their success.

Can you share with me and our listeners a success story where you kind of started working with a company a very long time ago and you managed to get them to the next level, maybe multiple levels?

I think probably a great one is the company journeys. They’re sort of a skater themed shoe company. They focus on that kind of demographic. When we first began discussing their e-commerce shop is back in 2004, I believe, they didn’t have an existing e-commerce presence. We went out and helped them build it on, back then it was the platform as a software developer we were building on top of, and then later we migrated them to our own platform.

And they’re still a client of ours today, and they’ve grown from zero dollars in revenue to a significant amount, I can’t share the dollar amounts, but they have a massive following. And then in this current environment, as their stores, they have well over 1,200 stores. As those stores closed down, all of that traffic shifted to the website because that was the only place you could buy shoes from Journeys. And our site was able to take on that load and carry them through that time until their stores could start to reopen again.

Wow, that’s amazing. It’s going to be a highly stressful transition for a client to suddenly lose their main channel of sale and needing to pivot overnight to online.

Indeed. It has also opened up some new opportunities in having to exist in this environment where you can’t have people coming in and out of your stores. We have built capabilities in our system that make things like curbside pickup, buy online, pick up in store, those types of tech available to really the mid-market merchants. Typically that’s only available in the higher end, you know, massive scale retailers.

And so we built in those types of capabilities and then reached out to the folks that of ours that were really struggling and came up with ways for them to quickly transition to that, especially with the states that didn’t open along with everybody else. Some of our clients had stores only in that state, so as other folks were opening up around them, you know, nationally, they were stuck.

And so they were allowed to have employees in the store but not customers. And we have a couple, you know, success stories with those just recently. And now many of our other clients are seeing that we have these great features available and they’re trying to figure out how to implement those, you know, in their supply chain so that they can do curbside pickup.

That’s interesting. What is your vision of where e-commerce is going for retail?

I think my answer to that would have been a lot different a year ago than now. You know, I think that with a lot of folks operating at a home and, you know, being a little reticent to go out to brick and mortar stores, even as states start to open, I think that the e-commerce side of things, being able to order and have things delivered to your home is going to increase as well as being able to, you know, some of this contact-free delivery where you drive down to the store and somebody brings it out to your car and places it into your trunk, you know, and there’s no real contact there.

I think those are going to be significant going forward, at least for the next, you know, five years. I think even after everywhere opens, there will be some folks that are eager to get back into the mall environment, but I think there’s still gonna be quite a few that don’t want to have quite that level of contact. So building those types of capabilities into our platforms and allowing merchants to do both, I think will really help a lot and it’ll become the norm.

Interesting. Well, I wonder how COVID is permanently changing the retail landscape. Do you think there’s gonna be some permanent shifts?

I’m sure there will be some impacts. It’s hard to guess. We’re already hearing that there are different strains of this virus that are coming out now after the first round has come. So I think it’s gonna be around for a while and that just our culture and the way of operating is going to consistently have an impact from this particular virus and it’s gonna cause consumer behavior to be different. But at the core of it, people still need goods and services. And so we’ll have to come up with ways that kind of cater to the differing needs of the consumer, whether it’s in-person contact or contact-free or no contact at all.

COVID-19 shifted retail dynamics. E-commerce, contact-free delivery, and curbside pickup are becoming the norm. People's contact preferences will shape the future of retail, impacting both online and in-person experiences. Share on X

So how will retailers compete with Amazon? Amazon has such a dominant position and they have the free shipping.

They do. You know what, I think there’s still something to be said about buying from destination sites. Journeys is one of them. They have a genre and a theme around what they sell and how they operate. And people like to buy from that merchant. There’s a bit of a comfort, safety, and community that surrounds some of these brands, not all of them. There’s also some challenges with Amazon retailing, A, to a merchant because Amazon takes such a significant percentage of sale.

So it’s difficult for them to operate, especially if their margins are within, in Amazon’s environment because it’s very price competitive and so they have to strip themselves down. There isn’t any money to be made. The second thing is there’s a lot of fraud on Amazon and Amazon is continually trying to fight it. And it’s so prevalent of people selling fake items. They say that they’re a particular brand of shoe, but they’re not really. There are reports of these types of goods being caught at airports all around.

So there’s a risk factor in buying from Amazon if you don’t know who the merchant is. And so I think that folks feel a little bit more comfort buying their shoes from a name brand. And so those folks are going to be the ones that really went out with this kind of curbside pickup, the buy online pickup in store, that type of thing. Amazon’s always going to be there.

I think that there’s a lot of folks that trust Amazon because if there is an issue, they can return it without any problems and they perhaps buy things that are commoditized items that it doesn’t matter that this isn’t the exact brand. If I’m buying some tissues or rolls of toilet paper or whatever it is, it doesn’t really matter if it’s one brand or another, but for those folks that are really looking for Converse shoes or something like that, sticking with that brand familiarity is going to be important.

I mean, I had this shocking experience. I went to buy some Nike t-shirts, and when I got in the mail, it was a totally unknown brand, and I couldn’t believe how they could confuse this thing, and luckily I could perform it, but it was still a pain because I lost time. I had to go to the hostel to take it to UPS store and that’s a really good point. So switching gears here a little bit, I mean you’ve been an entrepreneur for 20 years and you can tell me that it’s all smooth sailing, but I’m not sure I’m going to believe you. So can you give me, explain or tell us some stories of some specific challenges that you had to, you were faced with, and it was maybe very dramatic, and you have to overcome it, and how do you bounce back from it?

Sure, probably the biggest one is back when the dot-com bubble burst, it was around early 2000s, 2001 or so. At that time, we were Pure Services, and so we had just made that transition. We were founded in 99, and so we were about two years into our running, and we were having great success with a lot of retailers that loved having our help and we were seeing all that. And then this bubble burst and all of a sudden everybody started to curtail their spending.

And we back then had this kind of revenue curve that was all over the place, typically tied with holidays and upcoming events and things like that. And then when they stopped spending, we were really concerned about the future of the company. Luckily, we had some money and free time because there wasn’t a lot of new work coming in, but that running room was limited. So we kind of sat down, being software engineers at heart, and built our own software product and decided to pivot.

We launched that, as I mentioned before, in 2004, so it took us a year or two to really vet it, and then we started to move our existing clients off of their existing platforms and onto ours. So once that happened, we flattened out our revenue spikes. So we got nice recurring revenue every month. It made it more consistent operation. We pivoted, it created challenges down the way, but it saved, that was probably the biggest impact. We had to really reduce headcount.

It was one of those times where it just was so difficult for us as a company, just at a personal level, having to say goodbye, or at least put on hold so many of the people that we had We had grown in the last two years to do It’s one of those things that that changed me as a as a leader You know I never want to go through that again And so I’m looking much much farther in the future now than I did back then back Then you know it was like everybody else it was take off the middle of the day and go rent a Theater to go watch a movie with your employees, and we did all these kind of crazy things. I’ve definitely calmed down a bit from those days.

So, it sounds like an easy transition, okay, bubble burst, and then you just developed your own platform and you’re a couple of years down the road, everything was fine, smooth revenues and recurring revenues. So surely that was not that easy.

It wasn’t. We luckily had a lot of really strong resources at the time that sort of facilitated that. I had to take a hard look at what were those resources that we had, how do we come up with a way out of this. And so there were challenges. Obviously we had never really done a software as a product. Really we never transitioned fully into the software as a service model, although we like to say that ours is. It really is a custom software product that we then deploy and then build on top of on a per client basis.

But transitioning from a services company to a software company introduced a lot of challenges I hadn’t thought through. For example, you’ve got a lot of overhead now. Historically, when we did work, we could build for that time. Now I had to figure out research and development hours and how many resources am I gonna need and now general support type things, Q&A, websites, documentation, all of those types of things that go with a software product.

And then within the company, figure out how those communications are going to operate because we’ve got a team of engineers that are building on top of the platform and a team of engineers that are maintaining the platform, how do we facilitate communications? We are still part of the same company, but we don’t want to silo those communications such that we’re kind of at each other’s throats. So those were some of the things, and I won’t say that we’re perfect. We’re still fighting them every day as new things come up, but those were some of the things I didn’t realize we would have issues with when we jumped over that that hurdle.

Okay And who did you lean on so during that the period when you were growing the company who were your role models? How did you know?

I don’t have a particular role model I try to to look at as much as I can and and assimilate elements from As many business leaders as possible, you know, I’ve looked at you know gates and jobs and and some of the things they’ve done, they had two different approaches to a similar challenge in terms of one, focusing really on that customer experience and what would they expect the software to do when trying to implement features that we used to use the term excite and delight. We try to think through that customer experience.

In our case, it’s a B2B type product. So what would our merchandisers or retailers or advertisers expect the system to do and how would they like it to work? On the other side, in terms of the Microsoft, is a bit of a buy versus make kind of thing. Are there technologies that we want to actually try to build a competitor to, or do we just want to embrace them and roll them into the products? There were a lot of other folks that I looked at in terms of just mostly reading. I didn’t spend a lot of time following the leader, but there are a lot of great authors out there that have written some analyses of what good businesses look like and what made them successful over other businesses. And so I try to read as much as I can and adapt what everybody is saying to my particular instance.

So, it’s no secret that I like to invite EOS-run companies here on this podcast, and you’ve been doing EOS for almost a couple of years now, maybe 18 months in. Why did you decide to implement EOS? What was your trigger?

Well, you know, like I mentioned, when I go through sort of my own vision quest, I look at a lot of different authors and try to read as many things as possible. Gina Wickman was brought to my attention and some of his writings, and when I read through the book, Attraction, everything seemed to click. They all made sense. Many of the readings that I had done on my own were captured in there, disseminated, and made clear.

Transitioning from reading books to fully embracing the tool suite was key to success. Implementing a framework with an expert guide will expedited the journey. Share on X

In addition, he had taken it to the point of how do I implement these things? You know, these are all great to read, but how do you really use any of this stuff? And so, as I kind of went down that journey and read through the book, all of the things started to click. And so, I decided that that really made sense to follow a lot of these applications of various different authors. And I started to implement a couple of them on my own, things like how to organize your meetings in a more efficient and focused manner, and those types of things.

And at some point, we realized that we should just embrace the entire tool suite, make sure that everybody is on board and paddling in the same direction. And then we sought out an implementer to help us transition into that. Just because it’s one thing to read the books, but it’s much quicker path to success, I think, to have somebody kind of guiding you along the way.

I think in today’s age, essentially information is so ubiquitous and any information is available at the tip of our fingers. And it can actually be confusing to read all the books. So I myself had this confusion a lot of times that I read a book and got really excited about it and I start to read another book and then I was trying to figure out which parts should I implement of that book before I move on to the next one and you can get to a point where you are absorbing a lot of information and instead of having more practical knowledge you actually have more confusion as a result.

And I think what EOS really is doing, and thanks to its longevity, EOS has been around for now 20 years, started around the year 2000 when Gino created the system. It took him about five years for him to perfect it, to take it to the point where other people could implement it, and now we’ve been doing this for 20 years. And essentially, both the process of streamlining it and weeding out bits that didn’t work as well and tweaking the bits that did work, but were not perfect.

I think we got to a point where it’s a pretty close to perfect framework and because it’s become so known, people now have, it has a trust with entrepreneurs so that they, okay, 9,000 companies have implemented this at least with an implementer, probably 10 times more. They trust the system and that’s what makes it, I think that’s what makes it work. If people were unsure whether it was a good system or not, they wouldn’t follow the book exactly and then it wouldn’t work as well. So there’s this kind of catch 22 in this. So in terms of, how has it helped your business so far?

It has helped a significant deal. When I first bought into the process, I went out and bought several copies of Traction, delivered them to my leadership team, and had them read it cover to cover as kind of homework. I then went out and purchased the second one, what does EOS mean, or what, I forgot the exact title. What the heck is EOS, right? I bought probably five or six of those and put them into our office library and requested that all of our employees read it so they knew what it is that we’re talking about.

And we jumped right in with the level 10 meetings, really, to try to tackle, just breaking down what the really important issues are and make sure that we’re focusing on them first. We have a tendency to address the squeaky wheel and oftentimes let issues that are eroding our operational efficiency kind of fester because we’re making sure we’re getting things out and keeping clients happy. But in the meantime, the same types of problems continue to exist and keep us from achieving the next level ourself.

So taking those into place and just organizing, making sure that we have a cadence of meetings every week and we’re bubbling up those kinds of issues. We’re still new at it. We’ve only been doing it for coming up on two years, but we’re getting better all the time. The second one is, I think, the rocks are important for us at the team level, is making sure that we’ve got buy-in from a team as to what we’re all going to try to accomplish in a little longer period of time, you know, over three months, so that everything is clear as to what we’re trying to do.

In addition, you know, you have your daily work, but what are we trying to focus on achieving? I like that because it gives our employees a feeling of buy-in. My personal favorites are the quarterly pulse. That getting out of the office, sitting down with your leadership team, getting rid of all the noise and focusing on identifying all of the issues that come up. We have this process that we go through with you, Steve, that is great and it’s really just right everything up on the board, every single thing, and then we reduce that into combining like things, eliminating the things that aren’t that important, and it really helps us cut through to what the real issues are that we want to tackle.

The focus on strategic priorities and personal accountability enhances operational efficiency. Share on X

We break it out into our own leadership rocks, and then from that, we can disseminate it to the team. So we do a presentation at the conclusion of each of those quarterly meetings with the rest of the company, so they know what we as a company are focused towards doing, and then the teams can all pick from that list as to what they think they can help with. That one is particularly a great resource for us and I think it’s very helpful.

The second one is the scorecards. Keeping that really granular look is, here is what I’m trying to do this week and then tracking that number week after week and you’re going to miss some and you’re going to achieve some, but it really gives you a feel for how you are doing as a person, a cog in the wheel, if you will. I’ve got these numbers and that’s what I’m responsible for. I’m accountable for it.

And here’s how I’m doing so you know every week and everybody else knows around you whether you’re hitting your numbers or whether you’re falling short. But when you do fall short, it gives you that opportunity to go, I tried it. It’s not working. What do you guys think? And it gives those other folks opportunities to suggest things that you haven’t thought. So it’s a really great visible way of tracking what you’re doing and letting others help you. So I love those two pieces in particular.

And these are two tools that actually go into one of the six key components. So in the chart behind me, the bottom component is the traction component. And the idea behind traction is that you gain traction by having everyone contribute to your vision. So how do we break down this vision into quarterly chunks, priorities, that then the company can rally behind, we call them company rocks.

And it’s also a great communication device because when you declare that these are our three or four major priorities for the quarter, and you share it with the company, then everyone knows, okay, what we are trying to achieve here, and then they can look for ways to contribute to those those company ranks. So I do love that part about EOS. Well, thank you for sharing this. So you’ve done, you’ve read all those books, spent 20 years in the trenches as an entrepreneur, you spent another 10 years as a software engineer in the trenches. So that’s about 30 years. So if you look back over this 30 years, what would be the advice that you would give to your 20-year-old self that you know now and you want your 20-year-old Steve to know?

I thought about that a lot. I think the thing I would tell myself is don’t forget the fundamentals. When I started the business, the money was easy. We had come up with this new thing and everybody wanted one and I was not focusing on the fundamental business components that needed to be there to hit sustainability. We got lucky. We had some really great folks and we were able to pull ourselves out of a really deep hole, but not everybody is.

Had I spent a lot more time focusing on making sure that we have a solid pipeline and we have core values defined and a culture and all those other things and not focused on the fact that, you know, checks were coming in the door, I think that we would have been a much stronger company and not had to have fought through the last 20 years. I think we would have been much better. I’m focusing on the now. It’s a lot harder to change a culture than it is to establish it from the get-go. And so my recommendation myself is to really focus on the fundamentals of the business early.

Focus on the fundamentals of the business early. Share on X

Yeah, the 20% that takes care of 80% of the results.

Right.

That’s what we like to call it, the fundamentals. Basically EOS also has 20 tools, five of them are the fundamentals. We call them foundational tools. So what does your, what do the people around you, how do they understand what you’re doing? Because retail and e-commerce can be a little bit out there for most people. If I asked your mother what you were doing for a living, what would she say?

There’s a joke that a lot of the family members say that we’re website guys. While we do create websites, to your point, it’s much more complicated than that. It’s often difficult. People are sometimes familiar with the term e-commerce. We’ve sort of moved into the retail. We build online storefronts, but everything feels so jargon-y. It’s often difficult to communicate what it is that we do, and our marketing team has been quite challenged with that in terms of creating these types of messages so that you get in the head of the person that’s searching.

I want a, insert word here, what is it that we do? I don’t know that we’ve come up with a great way to explain it, but really, we help online retailers grow their business so that most of the time, because it’s online, it deals with the website. But we also like to think of ourselves as consultants, that we can help them work through issues with supply chain and merchandising process and who they need to hire next and where they need to focus their time. So we like to think of ourselves as a company that helps retailers grow their business.

So, if I was a retailer, let’s say I had $10 million sales revenue, I’d like to get to $50 million, and I would feel like my online presence is really not doing me justice. How could you help me? What would you do to diagnose my problem?

Sure. We’ll take a look, starting with your e-commerce process, to focus on what are the elements of the website that your customers can use. Do you have various different promotions clearly called out? Are you, one of the big things now is ADA WCAG compliant. So are you presenting your content in a way that the vision impaired folks can access your site and get the same information, protecting yourself from potential lawsuits and in general loss of revenue.

We’ll look at the way that you’re presenting your products online, is everything clear? Do you have great descriptions? Are search engines finding you? But we’ll also look at who your partners are. What companies are you using for tax calculation, for credit card processing, for all the different alternative payment methods. We found that PayPal and Google Pay are astronomical these days. People just love to use their mobile phones because they don’t have to go dig up their credit card.

You know, using your thumbprint on an iPhone is much easier than having to type in a CVV code and all those types of things. So we’ll look at all of those technologies that you’ve got implemented. We’ll look at the partners that you’re using to see if there’s folks that can offer better things, loyalty programs, things such as that. We’ll look at overall just general usability, site speed, performance, browser compatibility. Are you mobile-friendly is a huge one. We’ve got some clients of ours now that are 100 percent mobile.

We have a desktop site, but no one uses it on their desktop. They’re 100% phone. So that’s hugely important. So if somebody is not hitting those numbers, we look at, A, can people get to you? Are you using an SSL certificate that’s no longer honored by Google? There are a lot of different things that can cause those. So we have a whole thing, we call it a CRO, or it’s a conversion rate optimization. We look at why your site’s not performing as well as you think it should be.

We have a whole suite of audits that we run. Once we’ve got that, we’ll give a plan on how, whether it’s just use your existing provider and do some tweaks, we can help with most platforms, or we could move you to our platform and take it from there. If you happen to be on an e-commerce software that doesn’t support the things that we’re recommending and you really want to embrace those, we can figure out where you want to go.

We just like to start by doing an audit of where you are, and then figure out a path to get you there. We do this with our existing clients ongoing. Every year, we do a review of what we’ve achieved this year, what we think we should focus on next year, and then map out that path on when we should tackle each of those things.

So that sounds like similar to EOS process that you have about all the issues and then you prioritize and you look exactly set them up knock them out, knock them down, make them go away forever, and when they come back then you deal with them.

Exactly.

That sounds fascinating. Well Steve, I really enjoyed our conversation. So if someone wants a great website, a retail company, where can they find you?

Yeah, I mean, the quickest way to find us is to go out to our website and just, we have a chat, we can get you online with one of our folks immediately if you wanna talk with me, they can put you in touch with me most easily that way. Yeah, that’s probably the best way to start.

So, virid.com, so they just go to virit.com and they find you through the chat or they shoot your email, you also are on LinkedIn.

We are, I’m on LinkedIn, I’m on Twitter as well.

You’re on there as well. Well, Steve Deller, President and CEO of Virid, Inc., thank you very much for coming on the show and we’ll be back next week with another entrepreneur telling their story. So thanks for joining us.

 

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