114: Build A Label-Free Meritocracy with Alexander Kunz

Alexander Kunz is the CEO and co-founder of OP2 Labs, an INC. 5000 company that develops, manufactures, and sells innovative nutritional supplements under two brand names, Frog Fuel and Pro T Gold. We discuss the core competencies of a good leader, how to build a label-less organizational culture, and the process of manufacturing nutritional supplements. 

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Build A Label-Free Meritocracy with Alexander Kunz

Our guest is Alexander Kunz, the CEO and co-founder of OP2 Labs, an Inc. 5000 company that develops, manufactures, and sells innovative nutritional supplements under two brand names, Frog Fuel and Pro-T Gold. Alexander, welcome to the show.

Hey Steve, appreciate you having me on.

It’s great to have you. You have a very interesting business. So I would like to start with your story of how did you get to the point that you started OP2 Labs? Just give me the short version of it.

Sure. So, I have a quite a very diverse and very interesting career, I guess to say at least. But, you know, I graduated high school early and originally had my set my eyes on becoming a medical doctor. My father actually was an ER doctor and also a flight surgeon in the military, which essentially meant he was a doctor and a pilot. So that was my lifelong dream after kind of being a part of my father’s family practice for many years.

So I went to the U of A to attend medical school and it was probably about five or six months after I started, my father pulled me aside and said, hey, listen, I know that this is what you want to do in life, but I have to, you know, I just really want you to understand where I feel medical, you know, the medical profession is going. He said, you know, you’ve seen the medical, medical industry through my private practice, he said, but things are changing and we’re going to this managed health care system.

And unfortunately, he said, I believe that, you know, the industry is going from diagnosis, you know, proper diagnosis to really just treatment protocols. And he said, I’m telling you this because I don’t think you’re going to be happy in this career, because you’ve always really wanted to help people. So I, you know, I thought about it, and I was pretty distraught, but I trusted my father. So I had to kind of quickly decide on a new career. So I enrolled in chemical engineering, and then that changed to computer science.

And that led into one day I was at the University of Arizona campus walking down the main street, and I just about ran into an individual, and I could see that he was wearing these military uniform, a set of brown khakis, which I recognized because my father had a pair. And I looked up, and what I noticed that was very different was this individual had a very large insignia on his chest that I didn’t know what it was. And he looked at me and he said, hey, I just, I kind of stopped you because you look like you’re not really doing what makes you happy or what you want to do.

And my first reaction was, who the heck is this guy? I mean, this guy knows nothing about me, but he’s, you know, he’s already telling me who I am. But, you know, that conversation led into him, you know, asking me a few questions about what I wanted to do. And then that led into him saying to me, he goes, do you want to do the hardest thing you’ll ever do in your life? And I, you know, kind of piqued my curiosity, so to say. And so I said, well, what do you mean? And then he went on to explain the SEAL program to me. And it was then that I knew what I wanted to do without question.

There wasn’t any hesitation in my mind. I knew I wanted to do it. But I also knew that this decision would have consequences. And what I mean by that was my mother came from Taiwan. My father’s side of the family originally came from Germany. And my mother was a very traditional, brought up in a very traditional upbringing. And what I mean by that is, you know, her kind of culture believe that you’re either a doctor or a lawyer, you’re nothing in life. And she always really pushed education.

And I knew if I was going to go into the military, this would be the thing that she would not support me on. So having said that, I went home and I said, mother, I’m dropping out of college here and I’m gonna go become an A.V. seal. And she said, you signed that paperwork and you’re no longer my son. And I said, okay, I guess I’m no longer your son. And I left.You know, and not to make her sound likeshe’s some kind of evil person, I think a lot of her culture viewpoints were based on how she was raised. But at some point later in life, she took the time to learn what I had become as a Navy SEAL. And then we kind of reconnected.

But anyway, I served in the Navy SEALs for 10 years. Went to pretty much every school imaginable. Traveled to many countries. And at the 10-year mark, I kind of decided that I felt like I had kind of done everything. And so I was looking for the next adventure. And I really, you know, I felt like I was really this entrepreneurial spirit kind of locked in a box here. And so I got out of the military and my first job coincidentally was information technology.

So I was hired to actually build the Navy Marine Corps’ new internet or network infrastructure. So that was deploying something like 300,000 computers, building out three data centers. And this was all from the ground up, new construction, new systems. And it was very hands-on. So I went from knowing very little about technology to, you know, being what I would consider an expert in certain information technology fields. And then we were, you know, in that job we were sitting this, we call security operations center or network operations center where we have these massive displays and it shows all the different data centers, computer nodes out there and whether or not people are trying to break in.

And in the corner was the news and this is when 9-11 occurred. So, you know, of course that was on every major television broadcast. And so we were watching the airplanes fly into the Twin Towers. And it was probably a few months after that, I felt like, you know, I had this skill that I had obtained previously. I felt like I needed to, you know, use it again, so to say. But at that time, it wasn’t feasible financially for me to go back into the military. So, I went and contracted for almost three years with a three-letter government agency. So, I was over in Afghanistan, Operation Enduring Freedom. And I really enjoyed my time there. But, you know, I had a son during that time frame. And I was also going through a custody battle at that time.

And I knew that I wanted to be part of my son’s life. But in order to do that, that would be the one thing that would take me out of his life is to continue to deploy overseas, because you’re gone all the time. So I really decided I needed to focus on establishing a new career. And so I put my resume out there and then pretty soon I was hired by a large energy company, which is one of the largest energy companies in the world. I was hired as a contractor initially to do some IT configuration installations. And then four years after I was hired, I was then promoted to manage the company’s cybersecurity program, build and manage that program. And that was for three different entities, corporate Semper Energy, SDG&E, SoCal Gas, Semper LNG. So it was a global company.

And that pretty quickly turned into, I was a, managed the constituent of the risk management program. So everything from audit to compliance, to lobbying for privacy regulations, which kind of took me into the realm of being an industry expert in cybersecurity. So at that time, I was a subject matter expert for the development of Senator McCain’s cybersecurity bill, as well as Obama’s cybersecurity, national cybersecurity bill, which kind of led me to NIST, National Institutes of Standards and Technology, to helping them develop their risk management framework. So, at one point I was, you know, I did consider myself kind of a, you know, a national expert in cybersecurity. And kind of a leading story here, which is interesting.

So all the while I’m doing this, you know, a friend of mine just sold his company and he just bought this brand new yacht and said, hey, I want you to get on my boat here. We’re going to go out to Catalina Island, we’re going to have some fun. So, the way Catalina Island works is nobody owns the moorings out there, so it’s first come first serve. So, typically you want to be on your boat by about 3pm and try to get there by 5 on a Friday, because everybody, you know, you look along the coastline, you see all these boats speeding over there to get a mooring left and it was, there was a sailboat on the left of it and there’s this big massive 70, 80 foot yacht on the right.

And you, I could tell initially that this was going to be an issue because the individual who owned the yacht was standing up front, you could tell he’s very meticulous about, you know, polishing all the chrome on his boat. way we’re pulling in and this guy is, he doesn’t want our boat next to his. It’s an inferior boat. He wants his boat to stand out. And the way moorings work is that everybody ties on the same side of the boat, whether that’s port or starboard. And that way, when you have winds blow, all the boats are pivoting on that mooring and they’re not hitting each other.

Well, this guy didn’t like the fact we’re next to him, so he’s asking us to tie on the opposite side. And, you know, and my friend who owns this, you know, owns this boat, he’s not an expert by any means, so he’s having a tough time trying to get on this mooring. And finally, I’m just seeing this train wreck occur. And I looked at my friend, I said, listen, man, I said, just park the boat as you’re supposed to park it. And I looked over at the individual, I said, excuse me, sir, we appreciate your input, but we don’t need it. Just leave us alone.” And so he storms off. And next morning, about 5 o’clock in the morning, I’m at the back of the boat drinking a cup of coffee.

And this individual comes up and says, hey, you know, can I talk to you? And I said, sure. And, you know, he says, first thing he said, he says, I’m sorry, you’re absolutely right. I was wrong. You know, I want to apologize for that. One thing led to the next. Come to find out he was the former CEO of Westinghouse Communications and a number of other companies. And at that time, I was actually considering starting my own tech company. And you know, he said, you know, why don’t you come up to Los Angeles? I own a big mergers and acquisitions firm. You know, I want to hear about your company.

So while I’m working at Semper Energy, I go up there on a weekend, I think it was Friday evening, and I’m thinking, okay, this is awesome. I’m going to start my own company, I got my first investor. So I go up there and he says, hey, tell me about your idea. I start getting into this, I have a nice pitch deck, I wrote out and everything, spent a lot of time on it. And I get about five minutes into it. He says, listen, he goes, he says, you know, I didn’t bring you up here to invest in your company. I brought you up here because I want to hire you to manage my portfolio. And I, you know, kind of looked at him and said, well, what does that mean? And he said, I’m going to hire you to be the senior vice president of global business development.

And I’m giving you access to all our recent acquisitions. And I want you to help build these different global entities. So that was really interesting. So I was kind of working two jobs at that time, you know, Monday through Friday working at the energy company and then I would go up Friday and work Saturday and Sunday at this M&A firm. But it was really, it was interesting because I never really had this true global perspective. I mean, I always had an idea of wanting to operate a global company, but I really never understood what that meant.

And working with individuals at this level was so different. I mean, it was even different than, you know, working at Semper Energy, which was considered a global company, because these guys were really just shakers and movers. I mean, they could get anything done with a, you know, pick up a phone call, they make a call, they could lobby for regulatory changes, but the sphere of which these guys operate was just a whole different level. And so over the course of many months, I acquired a lot of experience just operating a whole different level. And I was really responsible for two major projects. One was a global media company, which was specifically films.

So film acquisition, conversion, 3D conversion, black and white, whatever it was, film production, post house, and then distribution. And so the idea is we would build out this whole ecosystem of a complete media company. And then the other project I had was specifically to deal with radioisotopes on a global scale, specifically radioisotopes for MRI CAT scans. So, our job, or my job specifically, was to develop contracts with all five sources of radioisotopes around the world and obtain exclusive contract rights to the acquisitionand distribution of radioisotopes.

Then on top of that, we always looked at it from a technology perspective, you know, how can we synthetically manufacture radioisotopes? And we found out that NASA at the time was developing a technology, so part of our portfolio was to go in a contract with NASA to exclusively license their technology to synthetically produce radioisotopes. So while I was working on this, it was kind of interesting. I mean, I had car block access to, you know, anything I needed, you know, as it relates to business. But I noticed there’s this little entity over on the side here that, you know, I would see money move in and out of, but I didn’t know why.

And I remember this one day, I went to the individual who hired me and I said, listen, you’re giving me access to everything here, but I don’t really understand what’s going on over here. I see money coming in and out, but what’s going on here? He said, don’t worry about it, it’s okay. I’ve got this. That just made me really feel uncomfortable like something was off. I believe that one of my strong skill sets is my intuition. And so I pressed a little bit more and he became a little bit more evasive. And at that point, I knew something was wrong. And I said, listen, I’ve got to trust my instinct here.

And so, which was tough because, you know, when you’re offered a few million dollar a year salary and 10% ownership into this global portfolio, that’s a pretty tough decision. But I knew that there was some impending consequence, something that was going to happen here. And so I resigned. Much to his disappointment, I left. And coincidentally, it was the right decision because I think it was about a year later, he was federally indicted on fraud charges. And what I ended up finding out was that this entity over here was an aircraft maintenance company that was writing false maintenance contracts to all the major airlines around the world.

To the sum of, I think it was around $350 million. So the individual had all his assets seized and I just never understood it. I mean, the individual was a billionaire. He had, I think, three homes around the world, he had four yachts, an 80-foot, a 60-foot. He had airplanes himself. I just kept thinking in my head, why? Why would you just risk everything for this dumb little thing over here that you knew was just not right? I mean, he didn’t need the money. That’s where I actually understood what true greed meant, right? But anyway, I’m still thankful for the experience I gained. But shortly after that, I focused on SEMPRA.

And at that time, my brother and sister came to me and said, hey, we’re thinking of starting a clothing brand. So I jumped on board there. So we launched a clothing brand called Nicholas K. Clothing, and that’s still running in New York. I did that for help them for about three, four years, and then decided it was time for me to start my own company. And so fast forward, here we are. So I started my company in 2012, and then it took us about two years of research and working with chemists to formulate our first products. And then we officially went to market in 2014.

So this is OP2 Labs, this company, and this sells, these develops and manufactures and sells these innovative nutritional supplements. So what is the problem that you’re solving in the marketplace with these supplements?

Interesting question, but a great one. So that, you know, a lot of it was lessons learned from being an AV SEAL, because not only are you physically pushing yourself, but mentally too. So a lot of the stress that the SEAL program is designed to really push you is on the mental aspects, because it’s really 80%. BUDS training, which is their screening process to become an AV SEAL, is really a six-month program. And it’s really 80% mental, 20% physical. Because physically you can do everything that you’re asked to do, but it’s mentally whether or not you can get over those obstacles in your own mind.

Physically you can do everything that you're asked to do, but it's mentally whether or not you can get over those obstacles in your own mind. Click To Tweet

And so you know, the mental challenge is, you know, the thing that you have to focus on. So in that career, you’re really working with some, you’re working with individuals of that same caliber, right? It’s not just, okay, I’m working in a company and I’ve got some good employees, I’ve got some bad companies. Everybody’s at that same level, right? A lot of ego, a lot of confidence. And so, to keep yourself performing at that level, you’re looking at every opportunity or every benefit that you can gain from nutrition to food supplementation to supplements. What I quickly learned is that I’m buying the best supplements at the time to increase performance, recovery, build muscle. What I noticed over time was there’s this kind of pattern.

You take these supplements, you train really hard, you get really fast, you get really big and then all of a sudden you tear something. And it was this consistent ebb and flow of injuries, high performance, injuries, high performance. And so the idea was, is it possible to create a supplement that could truly provide for the needs and benefits of somebody who’s an ABCL, right, that’s competing at a very high stress level, mentally being pushed to the limits, physically being pushed to the limits. And so that was the concept years ago. And then it was fast forward to 2012, it was me and the co-founder said, he was still operating, he was working for the Central Intelligence Agency. And he said, hey, I don’t wanna do this for the rest of my life, what do you think about starting a company?

And so, we started with research, to your question here, we started looking at different types of protein molecules and how they’re used. Our first idea was, you know, how do you strengthen the body but at the same time improve recovery performance? Because really, when you’re recovering from training, you know, you’re tearing muscle fibers and that’s really a healing process. Even though people say recovery, it’s really a tissue healing process. And so we realized, the problem that we’re trying to solve is really a medical problem. And so we did all this research on different protein molecules.

We looked at a lot of the research and medical publications here in the United States. And then we started looking at a lot of the research of medical publications overseas. And we found there was a significant difference. You know, here in the United States, everything tended to be fairly biased, very limited research on vegetable proteins, very limited research on things like collagen. Everything was pretty much whey. But when you get over to like Germany and Switzerland, Sweden, they were testing all kinds of things, everything from the assimilation of vegetable proteins to like collagen. And what we found was that they were using the most profound research was around collagen.

They had a study where they actually used high doses of collagen to treat macular degeneration, which is an individual whose rods and cones in her eyes are dying, physically dying, that collagen reversed process. We ran into research where they’re actually using collagen to rebuild knee joints, high doses of collagen. So, it was the only protein out there that we found through our research that actually was, can be rapidly assimilated by the body, but also could be used beyond recovery and healing to actually strengthen and repair connective tissue.

And so, we knew that’s what we wanted to use, but the problem is nobody made collagen. So how do you make a commercially viable product, something that at a price point that the market, you know, that’s viable from a market perspective, when you’re creating research where these individuals are getting million to $2 million grants to perform these studies. So, of course, we weren’t experts in formulation development, so we ended up partnering with an individual out of Stanford.

He was a doctor over there and a chemist who, you know, we essentially went to him and said, listen, these are the five requirements that we want out of this product. Can we, you know, we want to make this formula, and if we can’t make it, we’re not going to go to market with anything. And so again, it took about two years to come up with our first formulation and then around, I’d say about 200 additional test batches to actually get the flavoring correct for product launch. And then that’s where we started. 

So these supplements basically Supplements basically help people recover faster, suffer less injuries, and you have both in the sports arena as well as the healthcare arena, these supplements are. Now, one of the things that we spoke about, and I’m switching gears here a little bit, this podcast is all about the blueprint. So, what is the blueprint that other people could apply from what you learn, and one of the things that you talked about on our prequel was creating a label-less culture. So can you tell us a little bit more about why it’s important to create a label-less, to have a label-less culture and then how do you go about doing this?

Absolutely. So we kind of went down this path and interestingly enough, sometimes you’d really, you know, Sometimes you always have a perspective, the grass is greener on the other side, and you look over the wall and you find the grass is actually not greener. So what I mean by that is, I spent many years in the military, but never really thought much about the culture. And I would argue it’s the culture of the Navy SEALs, which actually provides the framework for such a high-performance organization. And, you know, after working through in many fortune 250 companies and stuff, what I realized was that many of those companies were struggling with culture.

And they weren’t really looking at it from the perspective of how do we provide a framework or a solution? They were always looking at things from the perspective of a problem. You know, we have, meaning we have cultural issues because we have a high number of employees getting discriminated on, or, you know, women being unfairly paid. And so what they would do is they put in place these little solutions to address that one problem, but in itself it would create larger problems in a culture because they never really said, okay, you know, we have a fundamental culture problem here that we need to fix. 

And so when I started looking back at, you know, the, my military career, you know, you get into the civilian career and now everything’s about labeling and everything’s about, you know, race. It’s about, you know, they, you know, every corporate culture likes to believe they don’t discriminate. But the practical reality is if you’re labeling and you’re focusing on a specific thing, you in some sense are discriminating, right? Because now you’re treating a class of people differently than the rest of the population. And what I remembered, you know, after being in this corporate career, you get through hundreds of hours of training on how to label people, basically, and then how to treat that classification of people.

And when I thought back to the SEALs, I said, you know, I never had that perspective when I was a SEAL. I never, when I got in there, I never thought about individuals in terms of their age. I never thought about them in terms of their race. I never thought about them in terms of their sex. It was all about just people, right? We were all SEALs. We were all there to perform a job. And whether that was the SEALs themselves, the operators, or the logistics support group, which were men and women, we didn’t have those issues. And so, you know, you kind of pivot and you start looking back at the past four years and it’s become more pervasive. You know, it’s more labeling, right? More labeling, you know, it’s this race of people, this religious belief, this political belief, you know, immigrant, non-immigrant.

And it’s, and so what I, I started to really think about it, and what I noticed is the practical reality is that we all have bias to some extent. And I think in many times we don’t want to acknowledge that. But the practical reality is every human in this world has a bias. And it’s not because they want to be biased, but it’s because of how they were raised. It could be influenced by their environment. In some cases, I would argue corporate cultures actually create those bias to some extent. So we really thought about how we’re a fast-growing company, but how do we continue that growth? How do we continue to be innovative? How do we continue to have fair pay equity? How do we continue to treat all our employees as individuals as opposed to a label.

And so we really started thinking about going the opposite direction that we’re kind of seeing other companies go in, which is, okay, let’s label this group and classify them. Because my belief is when you naturally classify something and label it in your mind, you are creating a bias in your mind. You’re now looking at that thing being different. And so, you know, I had to think about it in my own life. You know, just when I, you know, for instance, going to a shopping mall or going to grocery shopping, I really started to think about it and look around and like, you know, what bias do I have? When I, you know, if I see somebody that’s overweight and I see somebody that’s older, I see somebody that comes from a different race, I had to, you know, basically acknowledge, okay, what bias exist in my own mind and why do they exist and how do I eliminate those?

My belief is when you naturally classify something and label it in your mind, you are creating a bias in your mind. You're now looking at that thing being different. Click To Tweet

And so what we did is we decided to create a culture in our company where we just eliminate all labels. So you know, none of our information, none of our technology systems track anything about political beliefs, about race, about age. And we even went so far as to actually hire a recruiting firm during our hiring process that we actually don’t physically know who initially we’re screening. So we basically get these four or five sanitized resumes without names, without email address, without age, without sex, without a picture, without any LinkedIn social media profiles.

So our initial screening is based on the typical skill sets that we’re looking for. And as a matter of fact, we’re probably one of the few companies that actually doesn’t require a degree for any of our positions. Because I find it kind of hypocritical in my mind that I’m running a successful company here, I don’t have a degree, so why should I make a requirement for everybody else in my team? But we started looking at things, the hiring or hiring process. How do we ensure whether you’re male or female, whether or not you’re 16 or whether or not you’re 50, that when we’re bringing you on for a specific position, that that pay is equitable. And it doesn’t matter what your age is. It’s up to us to determine whether or not you have the skills necessary to be successful in that job.

And then, you know, obviously once it goes into a second, third phase, we select a couple candidates. Of course, I mean, the practical realities, we know who they are at that point because we bring them in for a physical interview. But, you know, the physical interview, from my perspective, is not really labeling or looking at people. You’re just, you’re just kind of, you know, really just watching eye movements, how they react to certain situations. One of the things I like to do is I’ll sit in an interview with my team, but I won’t talk. I’ll just in it. And typically what that does, it makes the candidates very uncomfortable because, hey, he’s the CEO, he’s not saying anything, do they not like me? But to me, it’s just applying a little bit of pressure to get them thinking differently, to see how they react to a situation that they may be uncomfortable with. So, yeah, so we talked about our hiring process. We talked about our internal systems.

The other thing that we’re actually looking at, too, is one of the larger problems in many companies, is how do you incentivize employees in a way that recognizes them for their achievements or accomplishments? I’m also part of EO, and that’s a topic that’s talked about a lot, bonuses, giveaways, vacations. And the consensus amongst everybody is that, once you start giving somebody a bonus, that bonus now becomes an expectation, and it’s really not an incentive anymore. And so, you know, I thought a lot about how do we recognize individuals for their accomplishments in a way that really incentivizes them. So culturally that, you know, as it kind of relates to label, like label less culture, I thought back to my military days and it was one meeting in which our command CO called that brought the whole team together.

And I was a new guy. I didn’t know anybody in there, but I remember when we sat down in the room about a hundred individuals in there, you know, I’m looking around across the room and I notice all these metals and ribbons on people’s chest and knowing nothing about that individual, not even their name, by looking at what they were wearing, I knew something about them. I knew how long they had been there, what their qualifications were, whether or not they had been to combat, a number of other things. And I said, wow, that’s pretty amazing. I mean, looking at my own company culture, I said that would be nice that I’ve got 1,000, 2,000, 3,000 employees, and I sit down in a room full of employees that I don’t even know maybe half the employees in there, but how can I create something so that I’m sitting in a room with employees that I don’t know and they don’t know me, that just by looking at them, I can tell something about them.

Right, how long they’ve been at the company, you know, whether or not, you know, the individual is a stellar sales performer because he’s got a, you know, got a recognition or a ribbon for sales performance or something related to marketing, something related to finance. In addition, we could have different little ribbons that are associated to career advancement, training, because I do believe a lot of companies struggle also with designing a career path. The practical reality is every company you step into likes to talk about the fact that you could one day be the CEO, but there’s really no clear way to get there.

And when you look at, compare that to the military, you know, in the military, you could be a first year new guy there, but you know, if you want to be an admiral, there is an established career path to get there. And so how do we create that? You know, how do we create that same type of system in our own company? But at the same time, you know, we want it to be encouraging. We don’t want people to feel like, hey, you’re kind of in this military structure where you’ve got an admiral who’s, you know, commanding you to do something. That’s not what we want, right? Which leads me into the second point here that, you know, we, what’s very important to us is not diluting values.

Many of the corporate cultures I’ve come from, if you talk about a C-level executive or a vice president in a PowerPoint presentation, you have to refer to them as a leader. And I found that just very, you know, one, if you’re diluting value, if you’re diluting a value, that value has no meaning as it pertains to an individual. So, you know, our culture, C-level, vice president, president, doesn’t matter. You are not a leader of the organization. You’re an executive manager.

And what that simply means is that I have increasing levels of authority and accountability in the company because of my position, but that doesn’t make me a leader of the organization. What makes me a leader of the organization are my actions, not my words, right? It’s the things that I do on a daily basis, and it’s the willingness of the individuals to follow my lead. If my individuals are not willing to follow me, then I’m not a leader of the organization, and I shouldn’t be where I’m at in this organization. So it’s really about empowering individuals to feel like they can be leaders. You know, they can be leaders. So, you know, we talk about a culture, you know, a labelless culture, but really it’s all-encompassing. We’re really looking at different aspects of the culture as well, beyond like the not labeling and segregating and just treating everybody fairly and equally. 

What makes me a leader of the organization are my actions, not my words. Click To Tweet

So it’s a label-less, empowering, and meritocratic culture.


Okay, so very interesting career path you had, and then you’re creating, you are working on these two companies that is revolutionizing nutrition and recovery for the military, for the health professions. And at the same time, you are creating this culture which is label less, it’s empowering and meritocratic. Very interesting cocktail, so to say. So, if people would like to learn more about your products, yourself, maybe you want to connect with you, where should they go?

OP2labs.com. So, that is our main company website. And, you know, we mentioned our products earlier, but our company actually operates under two brand names, so Pro T Gold and Frog Fuel. So, Frog Fuel is our human performance products and Pro T Gold, our medical line of products.

Okay, and you’re also on LinkedIn, so people can also reach you there as well. So thank you for coming on the show. It’s been very intriguing, a very unusual career progression that you had. And for those of you listening, please stay tuned next week if you want to learn about another exciting entrepreneur, come if you want to learn about another exciting entrepreneur, come on the show and have a great week.


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